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EARLY CHURCH

Ambrose
Ambrose, Pseudo
Andreas
Arethas
Aphrahat
Athanasius
Augustine
Barnabus
BarSerapion
Baruch, Pseudo
Bede
Chrysostom
Chrysostom, Pseudo
Clement, Alexandria
Clement, Rome
Clement, Pseudo
Cyprian
Ephraem
Epiphanes
Eusebius
Gregory
Hegesippus
Hippolytus
Ignatius
Irenaeus
Isidore
James
Jerome
King Jesus
Apostle John
Lactantius
Luke
Mark
Justin Martyr
Mathetes
Matthew
Melito
Oecumenius
Origen
Apostle Paul
Apostle Peter
Maurus Rabanus
Remigius
"Solomon"
Severus
St. Symeon
Tertullian
Theophylact
Victorinus

HISTORICAL PRETERISM
(Minor Fulfillment of Matt. 24/25 or Revelation in Past)

Joseph Addison
Oswald T. Allis
Thomas Aquinas
Karl Auberlen
Augustine
Albert Barnes
Karl Barth
G.K. Beale
Beasley-Murray
John Bengel
Wilhelm Bousset
John A. Broadus

David Brown
"Haddington Brown"
F.F. Bruce

Augustin Calmut
John Calvin
B.H. Carroll
Johannes Cocceius
Vern Crisler
Thomas Dekker
Wilhelm De Wette
Philip Doddridge
Isaak Dorner
Dutch Annotators
Alfred Edersheim
Jonathan Edwards

E.B. Elliott
Heinrich Ewald
Patrick Fairbairn
Js. Farquharson
A.R. Fausset
Robert Fleming
Hermann Gebhardt
Geneva Bible
Charles Homer Giblin
John Gill
William Gilpin
W.B. Godbey
Ezra Gould
Hank Hanegraaff
Hengstenberg
Matthew Henry
G.A. Henty
George Holford
Johann von Hug
William Hurte
J, F, and Brown
B.W. Johnson
John Jortin
Benjamin Keach
K.F. Keil
Henry Kett
Richard Knatchbull
Johann Lange

Cornelius Lapide
Nathaniel Lardner
Jean Le Clerc
Peter Leithart
Jack P. Lewis
Abiel Livermore
John Locke
Martin Luther

James MacDonald
James MacKnight
Dave MacPherson
Keith Mathison
Philip Mauro
Thomas Manton
Heinrich Meyer
J.D. Michaelis
Johann Neander
Sir Isaac Newton
Thomas Newton
Stafford North
Dr. John Owen
 Blaise Pascal
William W. Patton
Arthur Pink

Thomas Pyle
Maurus Rabanus
St. Remigius

Anne Rice
Kim Riddlebarger
J.C. Robertson
Edward Robinson
Andrew Sandlin
Johann Schabalie
Philip Schaff
Thomas Scott
C.J. Seraiah
Daniel Smith
Dr. John Smith
C.H. Spurgeon

Rudolph E. Stier
A.H. Strong
St. Symeon
Theophylact
Friedrich Tholuck
George Townsend
James Ussher
Wm. Warburton
Benjamin Warfield

Noah Webster
John Wesley
B.F. Westcott
William Whiston
Herman Witsius
N.T. Wright

John Wycliffe
Richard Wynne
C.F.J. Zullig

MODERN PRETERISTS
(Major Fulfillment of Matt. 24/25 or Revelation in Past)

Firmin Abauzit
Jay Adams
Luis Alcazar
Greg Bahnsen
Beausobre, L'Enfant
Jacques Bousset
John L. Bray
David Brewster
Dr. John Brown
Thomas Brown
Newcombe Cappe
David Chilton
Adam Clarke

Henry Cowles
Ephraim Currier
R.W. Dale
Gary DeMar
P.S. Desprez
Johann Eichhorn
Heneage Elsley
F.W. Farrar
Samuel Frost
Kenneth Gentry
Steve Gregg
Hugo Grotius
Francis X. Gumerlock
Henry Hammond
Hampden-Cook
Friedrich Hartwig
Adolph Hausrath
Thomas Hayne
J.G. Herder
Timothy Kenrick
J. Marcellus Kik
Samuel Lee
Peter Leithart
John Lightfoot
Benjamin Marshall
F.D. Maurice
Marion Morris
Ovid Need, Jr
Wm. Newcombe
N.A. Nisbett
Gary North
Randall Otto
Zachary Pearce
Andrew Perriman
Beilby Porteus
Ernst Renan
Gregory Sharpe
Fr. Spadafora
R.C. Sproul
Moses Stuart
Milton S. Terry
Herbert Thorndike
C. Vanderwaal
Foy Wallace
Israel P. Warren
Chas Wellbeloved
J.J. Wetstein
Richard Weymouth
Daniel Whitby
George Wilkins
E.P. Woodward
 

FUTURISTS
(Virtually No Fulfillment of Matt. 24/25 & Revelation in 1st C. - Types Only ; Also Included are "Higher Critics" Not Associated With Any Particular Eschatology)

Henry Alford
G.C. Berkower
Alan Patrick Boyd
John Bradford
Wm. Burkitt
George Caird
Conybeare/ Howson
John Crossan
John N. Darby
C.H. Dodd
E.B. Elliott
G.S. Faber
Jerry Falwell
Charles G. Finney
J.P. Green Sr.
Murray Harris
Thomas Ice

Benjamin Jowett
John N.D. Kelly

Hal Lindsey
John MacArthur
William Miller
Robert Mounce

Eduard Reuss

J.A.T. Robinson
George Rosenmuller
D.S. Russell
George Sandison
C.I. Scofield
Dr. John Smith

Norman Snaith
"Televangelists"
Thomas Torrance
Jack/Rex VanImpe
John Walvoord

Quakers : George Fox | Margaret Fell (Fox) | Isaac Penington


PRETERIST UNIVERSALISM | MODERN PRETERISM | PRETERIST IDEALISM

Thomas Ice
PREMILLENNIAL DISPENSATIONALIST
ANTI-PRETERIST DEBATER / AUTHOR

Has Bible Prophecy Already Been Fulfilled? | Alan P. Boyd, Premillennialism, and the Post-Apostolic Fathers | Preterist Implications for the New Testament

“many proponents of preterism often rush from partial preterism to full preterism almost overnight"
(End Times Controversy, 66)

"It is probably true that the disciples thought of the three events (the destruction of the temple, the second coming, and the end of the age) as one event. But as was almost always the case, they were wrong." (House and Ice, Dominion Theology, p. 271)

  • 8/6/12: Clarifying Tommy Ice's Clarifications on the Dating of Revelation

  • 100-Pound Hailstones? (2009 PDF) "The plagues, judgments, and disasters in the Book of Revelation and in other biblically prophetic passages are not understood by some as literally descriptive of miraculous events that God will bring one day upon mankind. Instead, non-literal interpreters of these passages say that these descriptions are either symbolic for a nonhistorical event or they insist on a naturalistic interpretation. Such approaches have a difficult time accepting the fact that God will actually throw 100 pound hailstones at mankind during a future tribulation judgment. What are passages like Revelation 16:21 saying? Is this to be seen as a future supernatural event or is it best understood naturalistically as a past event?"

  • Hank Hanegraaff Calls Tim LaHaye a Racist and a Blasphemer (2007) "Hanegraaff’s proposed interpretative approaches, if implemented, would send the church back to the Dark Ages hermeneutically. The great majority of the book is a rant against dispensationalism in general and Tim LaHaye in particular. There is precious little actual exegesis, if any at all, to support his preterist-idealist eschatology, however, there are great quantities of some of the most vicious invective against LaHaye and many other Bible prophecy teachers that I have ever read in print."

(On Preterism)
"What’s happening is that Preterism is challenging futurism. Idealism is not a factor out there and Historicism is not a factor. Preterists are rising up, coming mainly out of the Reconstructionist Movement, to do this. What is their theme verse? Does anybody know? Let’s all say it together, “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things be fulfilled.” So, when you talk to a Preterist, get ready to hear the words, “this generation” at least eight dozen times if you have an extended conversation.

We’ll have to have some Christian sociologists do an analysis of how frequently Preterists in an average hour discussion of Preterism say “this generation” and report back. That would be a good thing for the Christian Ed department to do. That way we could have some probability rates on these kinds of things." (The Conservative Theological Journal, 48, Volume 3, in an article entitled "The Destructive View of Preterism," pg 393)

(On Early Preterism)
"My preterist friends have not been able to find any early preterists in the early church. I would never say that there is no one in the early church who taught preterism. . . . Don't be foolish enough to say that nothing is out there in church history, because you never know. . . . There is early preterism in people like Eusebius. In fact, his work The Proof of the Gospel is full of preterism in relationship to the Olivet Discourse." ("Update on Pre-Darby Rapture Statements and Other Issues": audio tape December 1995).

"It is strange that there is not one shred of evidence that anyone in the first century understood these prophecies [in the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation] to have been fulfilled when preterists say they were. You would think that if a large body of Bible prophecy were meant to relate to a specific generation, as preterists contend, then the Holy Spirit would have moved in such a way so that first-century believers would have reached such an understanding.16 However, there has not yet been found any evidence that indicates that the first-century church viewed Bible prophecy this way. This fact provides a major problem for preterism, which thus far has proved insurmountable."

"There is zero indication, from known, extant writings, that anyone understood the New Testament prophecies from a preterist perspective. No early church writings teach that Jesus returned in the first century.17 If we as God's people are to understand the prophecies of New Testament in this way, you would think that the Holy Spirit would have left at least one written record of this." ("The History of Preterism," The End Times Controversy: The Second Coming Under Attack, eds. Tim LaHaye and Thomas Ice (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 2003), 37, 39.)

(On the Early Date of Revelation)
"If Chilton and Russell’s view is correct, then a majority of the New Testament was not recognized as already fulfilled until recently. It was not until fifteen hundred years later that Chilton’s preterist interpretation arose . . . When did the preterist interpretation first arise in the history of the church? The promulgation of this view ‘in anything like completeness’ was by a Spanish Jesuit of Antwerp, named Alcasar, in the beginning of the seventeenth century (1614)" (H&I p. 272).

"if there were some validity to the early date, some trace of this competing tradition should have surfaced. However, it has not" (House and Ice, Dominion Theology, pp. 253-54)


(Matthew 24:34)
"While it is true that other uses of "this generation" refer to Christ's contemporaries, that is because they are historical texts.  The use of "this generation" in the Olivet Discourse in the fig tree passages are prophetic texts.  In fact, when one compares the historical use of "this generation" at the beginning of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 23:36 (which is an undisputed reference to A.D.70) with the prophetic use in 24:34, a contrast is obvious." [Ice and Gentry,  The Great Tribulation Past or Future (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1999), 103-104.]

KEN GENTRY REBUTS THIS ARGUMENT:
"Ice tries to distinguish Jesus' use of "this generation" in Matthew 23:36 from the same phrase in 24:34 on the basis that 23:36 is "historical" while 24:34 is "prophetical." Bute note: (1) Both are prophetic.  In Matthew 23 Jesus prophesies future persecution for his own disciples (23:34) and the catastrophic calamity to befall the Pharisees in A.D.70 (23:35).  Declaring future events in advance is, by definition, "prophetic." [Ice and Gentry,  The Great Tribulation Past or Future (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1999), 182.]

"One major reason Matthew 24 could not have been fulfilled in A.D. 70 is that ‘the abomination of desolation’ (24:15) was not accomplished in the destruction of Jerusalem." Ibid., p. 290.

(On Luke 21:28)
"They see it as reflective of Zechariah 12-14, where Jerusalem is surround by the nations: This passage, they say, “fits very well into the language of Matthew 24 — the nations have surrounded Jerusalem. It does not fit the A. D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem, since that was accomplished by one nation - Rome. . . .It would also be difficult to see how a single nation would fit this passage even if hyperbole were used." (House and Ice, Dominion Theology, p. 291.)

Josephus: There were soldiers and horsemen from Caesarea, from Syria, from the kings Antiochus, Agrippa, and Sohemus, and from Malchus, the king of Arabia (Josephus, Wars, 3:4:2; cp. 3:1:3).


(On Anathemas of Preterism)
"I want to close this debate by appealing to John [Noe] to repent of his error of misinterpretation of Scripture and come back into the fold of orthodoxy." ("Preterist vs. Futurist," Nov. 1999)

"EXTREME preterists, or consistent preterists, as they prefer to be known as, hold that all future Bible prophecy was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. If there is a future second coming, they say, the Bible does not talk about it. Extreme preterists believe that there is no future bodily resurrection, which place them outside the realm of Christian orthodoxy." (Has Bible Prophecy Been Fulfilled?)


(On Futurism vs Preterism)
"Until recently, futurism has enjoyed an unobstructed field.  Preterism, the polar opposite of futurism, has arisen at least to provide a challenge to the futurist dominance within evangelicalism.. The debate is shaping up as a showdown between preterism and futurism." [Ice and Gentry,  The Great Tribulation Past or Future (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1999), 6.]

(On Doctrinal Inconsistencies of Partial Preterism)
"How can Jordan, after taking the references to ‘coming’ in verses 1-35 as referring to Christ’s coming in judgment in A. D. 70, turn around and say that starting at verse 36 through the end of the chapter, it refers to the second coming. Either he is wrong about the first 35 verses, and they do refer to the second coming, or he should take verse 36 and following as a reference to the A. D. 70 destruction." (House and Ice, Dominion Theology, p. 298)

"If [Jordan] were to take the whole of the Olivet discourse as already fulfilled, as Chilton does the whole book of Revelation, then he is left with the problem of where does the Bible actually teach the second coming?" (House and Ice, Dominion Theoloy, p. 298.)

"Why, on the basis of the hermeneutics Jordan has used to this point in his interpretation of the Olivet Discourse, does he suddenly make an arbitrary leap to the second coming of Christ?" (House and Ice, Dominion Theology, p. 268.)

"“The Olivet discourse did predict the coming destruction of Jerusalem, which is today a past event, but at the same time the bulk of the passage deals with the yet future events of Christ’s coming and the end of the age." (House and Ice, Dominion Theology, p. 271.)

"The first question is answered in Luke 21:20-24, since Luke is the one who specializes in the A. D. 70 aspects. Luke records Jesus’ warning about the soon-to-come destruction of Jerusalem — the days of vengeance. The second and third questions are answered in Matthew 24." (Ibid., pp. 293-94.)

(On Jewish Supremacy)
“God will keep his original promises to the fathers and will one day convert and place Israel as the head of the nations.” (House and Ice, Dominion Theology, p. 175.

(On Preterism)
“Both Dr. [Kenneth] Gentry and I believe that such a position is heretical, for it denies a bodily resurrection of believers and a future second coming of Christ.”

 

WHAT OTHERS HAVE SAID

Gary DeMar
"The history of biblical interpretation is against Ice's view. Is it any wonder that he fails to inform his readers that a majority of commentators stand against the dispensational interpretation of Matthew 24? If the grammatical-historical approach of interpretation is followed, there can be no other conclusion than that the gospel had been preached to the world of Jesus’ day before that generation passed away. For a point by point study of the arguments raised by Ice and a comprehensive study of how oikoumene is used in the New Testament, go to parts 2 and 3."


DEBATES BETWEEN TOMMY ICE AND GARY DEMAR

A. Zechariah 12-14

Preterism and Zechariah 12-14 - T.I. | The Redemptive Context of Zechariah 12-14 - G.D. "But to assume that the time reference is to distant prophetic events is dispensational theologizing designated to protect a prophetic system."  | Thomas Ice and the Time Texts - G.D. "By never raising the issue of how the second person plural ("you") is used throughout Matthew 10, he is counting on his loyal readers not to notice. And who would think to go to Mark's account of the Transfiguration to see that the "disciples" is a larger group than Peter, James, and John? Of course, we all know the answer to this question: Preterists would." | Bible Minimalism and "The History of Preterism" - G.D. "Ice and LaHaye get off on the wrong foot in their analysis of preterism. The historical argument is a death blow, or to use Mark Hitchcock's metaphor from his chapter on the dating of Revelation, "A Stake in the Heart" to their brand of futurism. The earliest historical sources, the Didache, the testimony of James, the brother of Jesus, and 1 Clement demonstrate that preterism's history is a first-century history." | Ice/DeMar Debate on LeftBehind.com | On Thin Ice

B. Matthew 24:14 Gospel Preached to World

The Gospel Preached to All the World - G.D.  "In an article published in the November 2002 issue of Midnight Call magazine, Thomas Ice presents the dispensational case that Matthew 24:14 was not fulfilled prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Tommy should be commended for finally doing what preterists have been asking dispensationalists to do for quite some time--deal with preterist arguments by actually interacting with preterist published works and by comparing Scripture with Scripture. I would be willing to wager that Ice's analysis of Matthew 24:14 is the first time any dispensationalist has attempted to reconcile this passage with global-language passages which indicate that the gospel had been preached to the "whole world" before Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70 (Col. 1:6, 23; Rom. 1:8; 16:25–26)."  "Few modern commentaries deal with Matthew 24:14 exegetically. It's as if Greek never existed. Fewer still even acknowledge that for centuries the view of nearly every pre-twentith-century commentator applied the events of Matthew 24 to the time leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.  Contrary to how modern commentaries handle Matthew 24:14 and its significance in determining the timing of prophetic events, older commentaries offer detailed discussions of the passage and show how it found proximate fulfillment in the first century prior to Jerusalem's destruction. What follows is merely a sample of how standard older commentaries, many still in print and used widely, interpreted Matthew 24:14." | The Global Proclamation of the Gospel - "The preterist arguments for a first-century fulfillment of Matthew 24:14 are much less than compelling. Their insistence that oikoumene in Matthew 24:14 must refer to the ancient Roman Empire has no traction."
 

Two Major Problems With Preterism

by Dr. Thomas Ice and Dr. Timothy Demy

Some interpreters of prophecy wish to argue that the tribulation is already past. This view is called "preterism" (Latin for "past") and holds that all prophecies relating to the tribulation are now history and were fulfilled during the first century A.D., usually revolving around events associated with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Preterism cannot be supported from Scripture for at least two major reasons.

First, in order to support the notion of an A.D. 70 fulfillment of the large number of details surrounding the tribulation, preterists must use an unwarranted allegorical interpretative approach.

This means that passages such as Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19:11 - 21, which have traditionally been interpreted as references to Christ's second coming, must somehow be understood to really represent Christ coming mysteriously through the Roman army which conquered Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Such an approach exceeds the legitimate hermeneutical disagreements over figurative versus normal use of figures of speech and commits the error of spiritualization by supplying a meaning not supported by textual interpretation.

A second major error of preterism is the confusion of judgment and salvation in relation to the nation of Israel. Preterism sees only judgment toward Israel in passages that speak of the tribulation, such as the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 17:20-37; 21:5-36) and Revelation 4 - 19.

Except for Luke 21:20 - 24, which clearly speaks of the A.D. 70 judgment upon Jerusalem, the rest of the passages picture Israel in a position from which God will deliver them from their enemies through His second coming. Even their allegorical approach to the biblical text cannot hide the clear fact that tribulation passages describe our Lord's salvation of Israel, not His judgment upon them. (From: the Pocket Prophecy Series, The Truth About The Tribulation; published by Harvest House)


Form letter from an organization called the "Pre-Trib Research Center."  Boasting such public personalities as Dr. Tim LaHaye, Dr. John Ankerberg, Dr. Larry Crutchfield, Martin DeHaan, Dr. Norman Geisler, Dave Hunt, Dr. Thomas Ice, Dr. Robert Lightner, Dr. Hal Lindsey, Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost, Dr. Charles Ryrie, Dr. Stanley Toussaint, Dr. John Walvoord and Jeffrey Townsend, the letter had this to say:

As we near the year 2000, many contemporary events are pointing to our Lord's return.  The fact that Israel has been back in her land for 50 years constitutes "God's super-sign for the end times."  In our lifetime, the stage is being set for the end-time drama that has been laid out for us in the Bible.

...We have two main objectives: First, to help Christians avoid the deception our Lord predicted would plague people in end times.  And, second, to help them anticipate His imminent coming.  Historically, whenever the church has anticipated his return, it has motivated Christians to holy living in an unholy age, greater evangelism and more zeal for world-wide missionary giving and sending.  Contrary to what some Evangelicals are saying, anticipation of the Lord's return, when properly understood, does not lead to inactivity; instead, such a hope in the Bible is the basis for sacrificial action.

This letter is sent to you because we believe you are vitally interested in promoting those same effects in your own congregation.  Attending such a conference will help!  In addition, it will help offset some of the "false teachers, false prophets," and even "false messiahs" Jesus predicted would come, by presenting them the truth about future things. (From Moody)

 

GARY DEMAR’S END TIMES FICTION
by Thomas Ice

Preterist Gary DeMar has written a book critical of Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins’
Left Behind series entitled End Times Fiction.1 DeMar is jealous of the fact that people
have responded to a fictionalized version of a dispensational prophecy scenario while
rejecting his own misguided belief that these prophetic events were really fulfilled when
the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and Israel’s Second Temple in the first century.
Apparently, in an attempt to jazz up his dusty old view, DeMar creates some fiction of
his own in his book and subsequent articles about Tim LaHaye. I guess you could say
that DeMar’s recent book is aptly titled End Times Fiction.
DeMar repeatedly represents the prophecy beliefs of Tim LaHaye as far-fetched and
beyond the realm of possibility. For years, DeMar’s writing approach has been to start
his articles and books with generous heaps of ridicule upon dispensationalists like
LaHaye and then use that as a springboard to introduce his truly ridiculous idea that
almost all Bible prophecy was fulfilled a couple thousand years ago. It appears that
DeMar is incapable of simply presenting his views in a straightforward and positive
manner, without first setting the stage with one of his negative diatribes against those
with whom he disagrees. Apparently LaHaye’s successful presentation of the gospel
within the context of a futurist view of the end times—that has resulted in thousands of
people trusting Christ as their Saviour—has DeMar very upset.
BIZARRE VIEWS
I have documented—in the past—DeMar’s strange belief that second coming
passages such as Matthew 24—25 and Revelation 19 were fulfilled in events
surrounding the Roman conquest of Jerusalem two thousand years ago. This errant
view is known as preterism.2 In a desperate attempt to defend this naturalist approach
to Biblical interpretation, DeMar teaches such bizarre views as the Battle of Gog in
Ezekiel 38—39 was fulfilled by the events of Esther 9.3 DeMar believes that the new
heavens and new earth of 2 Peter 3:10–13 and Revelation 21—22 arrived in—you
guessed it—A.D. 70. We have been living for the last two thousand years in this time of
heavenly bliss. Amazing! I could go on and on.
Lately, DeMar has been on a kick where he attempts to make fun of people like
LaHaye and myself who believe in a national future for Israel. DeMar does not. He
believes that Israel, as a nation, is finished in history, contrary to the teachings of the
Old and New Testaments.4 DeMar must close his eyes when he reads Paul saying, “I
say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! . . . God has not
rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says?”
(Rom. 11:1–2). DeMar does not know what the scriptures say when it comes to Israel’s
future. His a priori preterist beliefs filter out the clear meaning of the Bible when he
reads the plethora of passages that speak of Israel’s future.
www.pre-trib.org 2
DISPENSATIONALISM’S FUTURE HOLOCAUST?

On a number of occasions,5 DeMar accuses dispensationalists in general, and Tim
LaHaye in particular of somehow contributing to a future Jewish holocaust because
Zechariah 13:8–9 teaches that a third of the Jews will come to faith in Jesus as their
Messiah during the tribulation. DeMar’s twisted logic is similar to that used by liberals in
the 2000 Republican Presidential primary when George W. Bush spoke at Bob Jones
University. According to liberal thinking, Bush was identified with all that BJU was
thought to represent because he did not get up and renounce things that were not
politically correct. In a similar way, DeMar manufactures a sin that could only make any
kind of sense if one first assumes “preterist correctness.”
In DeMar’s article attacking LaHaye, “A Review of The Remnant,” he says,
What many people who read LaHaye’s The Remnant fail to grasp is that twothirds
of the Jews living in Israel today will be slaughtered, and for every three
Jews who decide to make Israel their home in the future, two will be killed
during the Great Tribulation.6
DeMar continues his assault on LaHaye when he asks,
Why isn’t LaHaye warning Jews now living in Israel about this pre-determined
holocaust by encouraging them to leave Israel until the conflagration is over?
Instead, we find those who hold to LaHaye’s position supporting relocation
efforts of Jews to the land of Israel that will mean certain death for a majority
of them because it’s a “fulfillment of Bible prophecy.7
There are a number of things that DeMar and his followers who read him fail to grasp.
Since DeMar’s criticism is based upon the supposed logical outworking of our futurist
views, I will work within that framework. Note the following: First, about three-fifths of
the entire earth’s population will be killed during the course of the seven-year tribulation,
many of them believers (Rev. 6:9–11).
Second, one of the main purposes of the tribulation (the 70th week of Daniel) is to
bring the nation of Israel to faith in Jesus as their Messiah. Jewish believer Arnold
Fruchtenbaum explains this purpose for His people during the tribulation as follows
when commenting on Ezekiel 20:34–38:
God intends to break the power of the holy people in order to bring about a
national regeneration. . . . In this passage Ezekiel draws a simile with the
Exodus . . . What is important to note here is that after God gathers the Jews
from around the world, He will enter into a period of judgment (tribulation) with
them. The rebels among the Jewish people will be purged out by this
judgment. Only then will the whole new nation, a regenerate nation, be
allowed to enter the promised land under King Messiah.8
www.pre-trib.org 3

What do YOU think ?

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Date:

28 Sep 2003

Time:

13:46:05

Comments

The bible was pretty clear that the Great Tribulation was to shortly take place from the time it was written, and doing a history check sure as heck it did take place within the time frames and time text the bible gives. However what is to happen in the future is called the "short season" Rev 20:3. The Great Tribulation is past, and the short season is future. Tony toeknee36@juno.com


Date:

18 Oct 2003

Time:

20:49:46

Comments

Your arguments have not convinced me that the historical view of scripture is incorrect. I see you know of Phillip Mauro's writings. He would clearly disagree with your theology, but I urge anyone to read Mauro's works and see his spiritual and logical approach to the Word of God. Jesus said,"this generation shall not pass...". His disciples believed then that he meant their generation and so do I. I'm not looking for a Great Tribulation any longer, I'm not looking for the temple to be rebuilt, I am not looking for some anit-Christ, I am only looking for Jesus to return. Praise God, 'It is finished'! Janet janetholt52@hotmail.com


Date:
29 Oct 2003
Time:
14:02:24

Comments

My belief and understanding is, “There is much evidence for, and a certain reasonableness in, seeing the seven dispensations revealed in the Holy Scriptures.” Also, the existence of a pre-tribulation rapture is very clear, even to my limited understanding of prophecy. However, I am not impressed by the writing skills of Thomas Ice as found in "The Seventy Weeks of Daniel (Part 1)" nor have I been impressed, in the past, by the writing skills of Tim LeHey. I think that each is basically correct on general Christian issues, so it is only their communication skills that are in question. The principle here is that in the eyes of the reader, any poor grammar and composition such as improper word usage, incorrect sentence structure, and misspellings etc., make it difficult for the reader to believe the truth being presented. As a result of these things, my logic asks of me, these questions: 1. How can this writer be so positive in his position yet be so ignorant in word skills? A general principle in life is that a person’s understanding is usually found to be limited by and proportional to their knowledge of words. 2. If their skills are this bad, would God have asked them to write this material? Consider: God did not chose the apostle Paul to write 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John. The truths found there are simple and John was young and simple. Rather, He chose Paul to write Romans and other New Testament books in which deep and great reasoning’s were desired so as to use them to reason not only with a disbelieving Jewish nation, but we Gentiles also. At any rate, it is reasonable for one to conclude that if God did not ask a person to write said article or book in which there is such a lacking of writing skills, then their written material is probably not worth very much, God not being in the effort. For example, in Mr. Ice’s article, he writes: 1. "One of the most important prophecy passages in the whole Bible ..." (The word prophecy is a noun - here being used as an adjective. Grammatically, the proper word to use is "prophetic" which is an adjective form. Therefore, it should read, “prophetic passages.”) 2. "One of the most important prophecy passages in the whole Bible is that of God’s prophecy given to Daniel in Daniel …" (The sentence structure here is wordy and awkward. It should read, simply, “One of most important prophetic passages in the whole Bible is found in Daniel …” This avoids using the words prophecy twice and Daniel twice in the same sentence.) 3. "This passage constitutes one of the most amazing prophecies in all the Bible." (He exclaims in his first sentence, and rightfully so, that this passage in Daniel is so important. In this second sentence, he desires to express for the reader, and rightfully so, how amazing this same passage is. However, beginning with the words “This passage …” does not agree with the feeling communicated in the word "amazing." It should read, “Furthermore, this passage constitutes one of the most amazing prophecies in all the Bible!” and include the exclamation mark at the end. Thus emotion is therefore carried throughout the entire sentence.) Consider a reader finding all of these errors, perceiving the lack of writing skills, and who is not even past the first two sentences!!! I do not mean to be so critical, but there is a reasonableness in associating lack of skills with lack of understanding. This principle of life should raise a red flag for us, increase our attention to the matter, and cause a heightened readiness to “… believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” However, this is not the end of our responsibilities. We are also commanded to “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” God Bless, Bro. Jim alfreysr@comcast.net


Date:
30 Oct 2003
Time:
17:09:41

Comments

Whoever could comment that Darby was a moron spiritually is without understanding and has yet to understand his position in Christ (if he has any) Darby and the Bretheren were anything but "subjective" and ministered from the Word from internal and objective Biblical ministry and scholarship - ( most with a thorough knowledge of Biblical languages) and had many encounters with those from opposing theological views. The Bretheren were famous thoughout Europe and the world for their Biblical scholarship and testimony to the unbelieving world at the time.


Date:
20 Jan 2004
Time:
14:28:20

Comments

I would agree with Thomas Ice that God is not done with Israel. The Bible is clear on that. If He is not done with them, then there must be a time when these promises must be fulfilled. This seems to support a kingdom age in the future. I do have a question, most dispensationalist believe that the Holy Spirit was recieved at Pentecost. If salvation is the same for the O.T. saints as it is for us today, then who regenrated the O.T. saints?


Date:
08 Mar 2004
Time:
12:01:52

Comments

The New Testament letter titled HEBREWS 9:25-26 esssentially states that CHRIST died only once! The New Testament Book of Revelation ll:8-9 plainly undermines Hebrews!! [Walter C. Cambra]


Date:
12 Mar 2004
Time:
12:55:54

Comments

I had a question regarding the teachings of Marvin Rosenthal of Zion's Hope based in flordia, and in perticular those of his Prewrath rapture approach and that the church will partake of the tribulation up to the out pouring of GOd's wrath as mentioned in Revelation. Thank you for any information you can give me.


Date:
02 Apr 2004
Time:
01:37:53

Comments

What are the promises that are supposed to be fulfilled in a yet future Kingdom? Is not Jesus the sole seed to whom and through whom the promise is granted? (Gal. 3.16) Do disp/pretrib believe that all Jews will be saved in the future sometime? As in every single one of them alive? If so, what about the ones who died apart from faith in Jesus? Was there another way to God for them? Why did Paul say in Romans 9 that he would be cursed for the sake of his kinsmen according to the flesh, and then contrast them with someone who is saved by the promise, if he (as seems to be taught in pre-trib circles) a few minutes laters would say that they would all be saved (according to the flesh)? It seems that there is a difference between at least two groups of people here: those for whom he would even be cursed for their sake and those whom God saves through the promise. They are not the same. Anyways, just a few questions I have of the pretrib side. Thanks for your time. I will check back here. DANIEL


Date:
02 Apr 2004
Time:
01:45:03

Comments

How does Rev. 11.8,9 undermine Hebrews 9.25,26? I must be missing something here.


Date:
15 May 2004
Time:
12:41:34

Comments

I have a question for Ice and other dispensationalists. How does the dispensationalists version of the 70th week of Daniel, fulfill Daniel 9:24? Please e-mail me your answer at toeknee36@juno.com Thanks! Tony


Date:
27 Sep 2004
Time:
11:11:54

Comments

This makes sense since the preterist is not consistent in his or her hermeneutics. Preterists as Dr. Ice has pointed have to allegorize scripture to hold to a A.D. 70 date. The normal method of interpretation of scripture is to interpret scripture literally allowing for the historical background of the book. Even figures of speech convey literal truth. Allegory is used in scripture but the text or writer either gives the interpretation of the passage or tells that each part of the particular allegory has a definite meaning. This is a safeguard so that imagination does not run wild as is the case with the preterist view. Norman W. Mathers bornagain68@peoplepc.com

 


Date:
02 Dec 2004
Time:
13:35:10

Comments

I have a quote here by Thomas Ice in regard to the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians: 1."Second Thessalonians 2:1-12 discusses a man of lawlessness being held back until a later time. Interpreting the restrainer of evil (2:6) as the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit at work through the body of Christ during the current age, supports the pretribulational interpretation. Since "the lawless one" (the beast or Antichrist) cannot be revealed until the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is taken away (2:7-8), the tribulation cannot occur until the church is removed. Of all the rapture positions, only the pre-trib position can be harmonized when we understand that the Restrainer is referring to the Holy Spirit." Here is some serious food for thought next time someone considers the logic of this method of interpretation: The premise supports the theory; and yet the theory supports the premise. (figure that one out? o His premise that the Holy Spirit is the restraine supports the pre-trib theory, and yet it is that very same theory that acts as a foundation for the premise that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer. - Derek Ouellette, zekejeho@hotmail.com


Date:
18 Jan 2005
Time:
11:23:59

Comments

READ WITH INTEREST THE CRITCIZING OF THOMAS ICA AND TIM LAHAYE BY REV.JIM ALFREYS. DIDNT KNOW THAT GOD CHOSE MEN TO WRITE HIS WORDS ACCORDING TO THEIR SKILLS.SO CALLED"ignorant men" SEEMED TO BE THE CALL OF CHRIST TO MEN WHO WERE TO SERVE HIM.IF MEN WROTE AS THEY WERE INSPIRED TO DO SO GOD MUST TAKE SOME OF THE BLAME. AS FOR THE REST OF US WHO WRITE BOOKS PLEASE FORGIVE OUR INACURACIES (OOPS I DID IT AGAIN).


Date: 17 May 2005
Time: 16:06:25

Comments:

Dear Dr. Ice,
I am a student of prophecy. In the past year, I saw the tail-end of a "one-hour?" program on Christian television dealing with the issue of Preterism.
A number of different pastors (one of which, I think, was you) made appearances refuting the proposition that the events in Jerusalem of 70 AD represent the Great Tribulation. It was an excellent broadcast and I would very much like to view it in it's entirety and hopefully obtain a copy of it for my personal library. I would deeply appreciate any help that you can give me in identifying this broadcast.
Sincerely,
Dr. Guy Roberts
guyroberts@hotmail.com


Date: 29 Sep 2005
Time: 08:33:01

Comments:

Progressive Dispensationalism is but a stop on the way to ecumenicalism,world religions, and the world church. I am saddened to see some seminaries have drifted.
Premillenialism and pretribulationism is not a view it is the truth.

Dr. Norman Mathers PhD
 


Date: 21 Oct 2005
Time: 09:00:46

Comments:

Rev. 20:4
No. 1 John saw thrones, and people to whom judgement was given sat upon them.

No. 2 Then John saw the souls of people who were beheaded...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

No. 3 Then John speaks of a third group of people, i.e., the rest of the dead, and says that they lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

After John mentions three distinct groups of people, he says, "This is the first resurrection."

Unless I am missing something here, John lumps them all together; all three groups of people come under the heading of "First Resurrection." That means they are saved, they are in Christ. This First Resurrection, therefore, must be spiritual.

The way the passage is stated, it is impossible that the "rest of the dead" are the wicked dead, as proposed by dispensationalists.

As I see it, the first group are the living in the Church, ruling and reigning here on earth. The second group are the saints who "endured to the end" of the Jewish era, i.e., the end of the nation of Israel in AD70, remaining true to God AND to Christ. They didn't fall away. I suspect that when that generation was killed or died away during the first century, their souls were taken up to heaven to rule with Christ. That means that church members today who die remain dead until the end of the "THOUSAND YEARS." This "thousand years" need not be exactly 1000 years but some unspecified multiple of 1000 years.

So the New Testament speaks of the end of two different worlds, the Jewish world 2000 years ago, and the end of the Gentile world in the future.

Mac@tribulationhoax.com


Date: 10 Nov 2005
Time: 20:37:45

Comments:

Christ has already come and set his kingdom in the heart of man, therefore there is nothing left to do but to receiver his salvation. But don't think for a minute, that Jesus was referring to the whole natural world seeing him. Only the “chosen” from one generation unto another shall see the salvation of the Lord.

Thessalonians 4 is where we learn that there were two resurrections. And the first resurrection involved all the Old Testament saints.

And as we all know, those that were asleep in Christ, were all the prophets and saints that parished before Christ come, and shortly after his death. Rev.6:9-11 will attest to this fact.

‘9’ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

‘10’ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

‘11’ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, [the apostles] that should be killed “as they were”, should be “fulfilled”.

Rev.20:4-5
‘4’ And I saw thrones, and they [the Apostles Mt.19:28] sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

‘5’ But the rest of the dead [those that were awaiting the second coming] lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Now the rest of the dead that verse five is referring to; was those that were still spiritually dead and waiting for the Gospel to be fulfilled. They could not be quickened until the Apostles and Prophets had finished their course during the first resurrection.

The Greek word for resurrection in verse 5 is “anastasis” which means,
“A moral recovery of spiritual truth” And I believe, that this spiritual truth was recovered through the resurrection back in the first century church as the gospel was being established.

See in the first resurrection, those that were active in the ministry of Christ, had to put down all rule and authority before the rest of the Church could live. But chances were, most of the ones that were active during the first movement were martyred.

Mt.23:33-38 tells us this very fact;

‘33’ Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

‘34’ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

‘35’ That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, “from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias” son Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

‘36’ Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. [The generation of the Apostles]

‘37’ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

‘38’ Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Another good reference is also in Lk.11:47-51

(47) Woe unto you! (Pharisees) for ye build the sepulchres of prophets, and your fathers kill them.

(48) Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and build their sepulchres (graves)

(49) Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute.

(50) That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the
foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;


(51) From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the alter and the temple: verily I say unto you, it shall be required of this generation.

Now in these few verses, indicate that there was a lot of blood shed during the first century church movement. But this had to take place in order for the gospel to be preached unto every nation at that time before Christ could return in the fullness of his kingdom with all power and authority.

And in these few verses to me, does not sound like the Lord was too happy with the former people that were in charge of his work.

When we look in books of old, we see God as a builder and destroyer, he builds up, and he tares down, he plants, and he pulls up. ( Jer.1:10 )

And In prior generations, God’s people had turned corrupt and completely took control of his heritage; that’s why so great a war had to take place. And this my friend, was the war that took place in Revelations.
(Rev.11:7, 12:7, 13:7, 17:14, 19:11-19 & Dan.)

And as we know war, we always know that there is a great sacrifice of innocent blood shed, that’s just the facts of war. Whether it is in our history, or theirs.

See without Gods kingdom in order, Gods people could not be in order, without Gods rule, we would be ruled by our corruptible bruit nature.

Which nature Satan brought with him into Gods garden, sowing tares in with God's precious wheat.

For the tares sprung up, and over grow the wheat. Jesus said in Mt.13 that the tares are the children of the wicked one, and the wheat are the children of God.

And somewhere between the time of Noah, and the birth of Christ, these wicked men came into authority in Gods vineyard. And in the days of Noah, the Bible says, that God saw that the wickedness of men was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. ( Gen.6:5 )
So God had to completely wipe the face of the earth clean with a flood and start over. And in about the space of 2000 years from Noah to Jesus, God had to once again take control.

As we see in biblical history, God is a husbandman, a farmer. In the beginning of mankind, God planted a vineyard; he placed certain men in certain places to run it.

And the first err, was from Adam to Noah. Satan had come in and corrupted the world; So God had to clean house.

Then from Noah to Jesus, God was faced with the same problem.

Here are a few good references that will bring this to light;
( Gen.6:5, IPet.3:20, IIPet.2:5, Mt.24:37-40, Lk.17:26,30, Mt.13:24-30, Mt.21:27-43 )


Here is another example of what God was dealing with in the prior Church.

Mt,23:13,15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, (member) and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Lk.11:52

Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered

See these are the people that God had to deal with before salvation could be restored.
Lets now recap Revelations 20, it told us that the saints were to be resurrected first, and to rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years, and that the rest of the dead would not live until the thousand years were finished.

Okay first we must understand, that God was dealing with an early church that was under Judaism, and before Christianity could come to pass, Christ had to first put down all authority by coming through his saints bringing judgment.

And those saints Brothers and Sisters, “were Gods Angels” and they were coming back with him to put down all authority.
( IIThess.1:7& IThess.3:13, Rev.19:11-15, Jude.14 & Ps.149:6-9)

Now the thousand years in Rev.20 is a symbolic term. It symbolizes the day of the Lord to punish Jerusalem. And the reason I know that this is symbolic, is because in the book of Peter, when it spoke about judgment day in 3:7,8, he tells us;

(7) But the heavens which are now (in 61AD) by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

(8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that “one day” is with the Lord as a “thousand years” and a thousand years as one day.
( This Brothers and Sisters, is the thousand year reign in Revelations )

Now the thousand years in Revelations had to be fulfilled before the rest of the dead could live spiritually. This was because the second resurrection could not take place if not for the judgment that came in the first resurrection.

In Peter it speaks of a thousand years as being one day, and not by coincidence, he spoke of a new heaven and a new earth also in that same chapter; And in Revelation 20, when it speaks of a thousand year reign, it immediately follows with a new heaven and a new earth.

In Peter it tells us, there would be a new heaven and earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, ( 3:12,13 ) and this righteousness was brought in with Christianity, wherefore bringing in a new heavenly realm and dominion unto the Church.




See before Christ come, in Isa.53:6 & Rom.3:10,11, it said that there was none righteous, for all like sheep have gone astray. So Christ in the regeneration had restored righteousness back unto the church with a new and better way of living, by bring all things back into its original place.


And when we look at the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke & John, it was just the beginning of Gods plan for Christianity. Then in the book of Acts the new covenant was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

Then in all the other books from Romans to Revelations, was the Pentecostal doctrine established.

And see, until this was done, the Gospel could not restore souls if it was not restored itself.

Here is another example; the New Testament is just the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. Which is in our day referred to as, Preterism.
Preterism is an in-depth study of all the fulfillments of the Old Testament that came to pass in the New Testament.

All events that had taken place from the book of Matthew, to the book of Revelations, was the complete sought out judgment from God. Which judgment did indeed fall upon a prior generation.

The book of Revelations, was the very last and final outcome of all Old Testament prophecy.


Thanks for listing, Aj


Date: 14 Nov 2005
Time: 09:39:54

Comments:

The thousand year reign in revelations is a symbolic phrase for, “the day of the Lord to punish Jerusalem.” IIPet.3:8 reveals to us that one day is as a thousand years, and in this chapter of Peter and the following chapter he also talks of the judgment that was to come. Which judgment did indeed did fall upon that generation. But such as the rest of the dead in Revelations, they were the ones that were spiritual dead and could not live until the “Gospel” was fulfilled. Because the true Gospel of our Lord and savoir Jesus Christ will bring Spiritual life to the reader. And it could not restore souls until it was restored itself. Aj


Date: 18 May 2006
Time: 05:53:19

Comments:

Hello Dr Thomas
Sorry but your teaching is not clear and biblical. It is more fiction like the "De Vinci Code". You should watch 3ABN and the Hope channel to find out the difference to a bible-based teaching.
Have a nice day
God Bless
Karlheinz


Date: 06 Jun 2006
Time: 10:41:37

Comments:

VINE'S COMPLETE EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY OF OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT WORDS, pg. 531

RESURRECTION
1. anastasis ( 386 ) denotes (I) "a raising up," or "rising" (ana, "up," and histemi, "to cause to stand"), Luke 2:34, "the rising up;" the AV "again" obscures the meaning; the Child would be like a stone against which many in Israel would stumble while many others would find in its strength and firmness a means of their salvation and spiritual life; (II) of "resurrection" from the dead, (a) of Christ, Acts 1:22; 2:31; 4:33; Rom. 1:4; 6:5; Phil. 3:10; 1 Pet. 1:3; 3:21; by metonymy, of Christ as the Author of "resurrection," John 11:25; (b) of those who are Christ's at His Parousia (see COMING), Luke 14:14, "the resurrection of the just;" Luke 20:33,35,36; John 5:29 (1st part), "the resurrection of life;" John 11:24; Acts 23:6; 24:15 (1st part); 1 Cor. 15:21,42; 2 Tim. 2:18; Heb. 11:35 (2nd part), see RAISE, Note (3); Rev. 20:5, "the first resurrection;" hence the insertion of "is" stands for the completion of this "resurrection," of which Christ was "the firstfruits;" Rev. 20:6; (c)

STRONG'S EXHAUSTIVE CONCORDANCE OF THE BIBLE, GREEK DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, pg. 111

RESURRECTION

386 ANASTASIS, an-as-tas-is; from 450; a standing up again, i.e. ( lit ) a resurrection from death ( individual , gen. or by impl. [ its author ] , or ( fig. ) a ( moral ) recovery ( of spiritual truth ) : - a raised to life again, resurrection, raise from the dead, that should raise, rising again.


Date: 25 Aug 2006
Time: 13:27:23

Comments:

To whom it may concern:
I am greatly troubled with the recent spread of preterism. If Jesus did return during the first or second century and the entire book of Revelation is historical information where is the "Blessed Hope" spoken of by Paul in Titus 2:13? When will God fulfill all His promises to Israel? Preterism is a dangerous doctrine and I question the discernment of anyone who teaches it.

Sincerely,
A Concerned Saint!


Date: 09 Sep 2006
Time: 13:34:19

Comments:

This is for the one that wrote in about our blessed hope. Friend, truth is, Christ through the regeneration in the first century, has in fact restored salvation for future ages that would except the true Christian message. For know is our blessed hope a true reality. It’s just as Paul had told the church Rom 13:11 “ And that, “knowing the time” that “now” it is high time to awake out of sleep: for “now” is our salvation nearer than when we “believed.”

God Bless. AJ Satterfield


Date: 18 Oct 2006
Time: 17:12:58

Comments:

In light of the historical development of the replacement of Israel in the eartly centuries of the church, it would appear that Preterism is as old as the end of the Apostolic period and the beginning of the 'three-tiered' level of church rule as outlined by Ron Diprose in his book, Israel and the Church. It is an outstanding historical perspective I didn't even get at DTS. Is this maybe why Dallas is now facing alarming theological departures?
 


Date: 25 Jul 2007
Time: 19:24:14

Comments:

Mr Ice You need to to get your head out of the cold ice block of dispensationalism and read the Bible for what it is worth. I was a die hard pretriber but I just started to read the bible in both greek and hebrew along with the other two languages (latin and aramaic) I know and some history about second temple Judaism the hopes and dreams of the Jews during the Roman period and the sayings of Jesus along with Isaiah and the other prophets along with deuteronomy and low and behold I couldn't find Hal Linsey or any of the other false teachers and their ideas about Isreal, and the future in the Bible. Maybe I need to have Joseph Smith's eye glasses and an angel turn over another rock.


Date: 15 Aug 2007
Time: 07:12:25

Comments:

Post-Tribulationalist is an Old Testament teaching directly for Israel. Zephaniah for example being hidden in the day of the Lord.

However, since modern day post-tribs fail to interpret the Bible dispensationally then it follows that they are unable to discern the New Testament distinction between Israel and the Church.

Norman W Mathers
8-15-07


Date: 20 Oct 2007
Time: 02:33:17

Comments:

If literally interpreted, the Bible does not point to a future seven year "Great Tribulation." Instead, it tells of two separate tribulations in the past - in the closing years of Israel as the time approached AD70. The first tribulation lasted some forty years, and is called in the Scriptures the "Baptism of Fire." This was the time of testing which all Jews who professed belief in Christ had to endure to the end (just before the tribulation foretold in Matthew 24). The Jews who endured to the end, who overcame (Revelation 3:5), had their salvation confirmed. Those who fell back, and forsook Christ, had their names blottd out of the book of life. They were blinded and destroyed in the second tribulation, the holocaust of AD70.

In the Gospel of John, Christ came unto His own, and most of His own did not receive Him, but to those that did, Christ did not make them sons (children) of God, He only gave them power to become children of God. Only after passing through the Baptism of fire did they become children of God.

All the Jews were raptured at that time. The Old Testament Jews were resurrected and taken up to heaven at that time. They all reside in the New Jerusalem, the twelve tribes of the Old Testament being judged by the 12 apostles and (possibly other disciples of Christ). According to Rev. 21 and 22, they will be permanent residents of the New Jerusalem, even after the Church Age.

Certain key verses which Premillennialism appears to overlook, some of which have been damaged by modern translations:
Luke 21:22 "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written shall be fulfilled." The days of vengeance took place in AD70. No Old Testament prophet prophesied anything to happen after that.

Romans 11:32, "For God had concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy on all." The first all were all the Jews, which God turned into "unbelievers," same as Gentiles. After that, they could return to the Father, but only through faith in Jesus Christ, same as Gentiles.

Christ did indeed come back, visibly to those whom He took up to heaven. And when He came in vengeance, those people, too, saw Him. Even the ones who pierced Him. That generation was still alive at the time.

All Israelites having been concludd in unbelief, means that there are no Jews on earth today. The so-called "Jews" are only the pretenders, and the misled. And there is no Israel. All "Jews" are Gentiles, and the Israel of 1948 is a Gentile nation, just like any other.

C.P. Machovsky

http://www.tribulationhoax.com
 


Date: 04 Jul 2009
Time: 05:29:31

Your Comments:

If you interpet the Bible literally and historically then you will come out pre-tribe and pre-mill. I am assuming that under literal interpretation of the Bible that allowance is made for figures of speech. Figures of speech convey literal truth by way of transference from the literal to the spiritual realm.

Prof. Norman W Mathers


Date: 22 Jan 2011
Time: 18:53:29

Your Comments:

To Professor Norman Mathers, and others who are sold on the pretrib and premil theories:

The Bible, interpreted honestly and literally,
reveals that Preterists, if not totally accurate, are much more so than pre-mil dispensationalists.

The point, which everyone seems to be missing, is that the Rapture, the Great Tribulation, and a great deal else, happened to the Jews. The world, as it is referred to in the N.T., was their world, not the world in general as the one we live in today.

There was a point in time when God took away the elevated spiritual status of all Israel, the good, the bad, and the ugly, and made everyone an "unbeliever," just like the Gentile (Romans 11:32). He concluded all Israel in unbelief (The King James Bible. It seems that most new translations obscured that fact, resulting in illogical and incomprehensible Bibles.) The Jews could return to the Father, but only through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, just like the Gentile. It is a most remarkable fact that a vast number of ministers, preachers, and prophecy teachers prefer modern translations, which have a definite Judaic and anti-Christian flavor, subtle though it may be..

The faithful Jews were raptured, and the unfaithful Jews perished in the Roman holocaust. At about that time, the Old Testamemt 12 tribes were raised and taken to heaven to be ruled and reigned over by Christ and His disciples. Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven, never to return. Much happened in that relatively short period of time just before AD70. Bible scholars of various prophetic leanings, instead of fighting each other for prominence, ought to simply read a good Bible (the KJV). Start with such verses as Deuteronomy 7:9, which is proof positive that God did not make an unconditional covenant with Israel, thus nothing like God's Kingdom was "postponed."

And as for Preterists insisting on all happening to the one generation living in Christ's day, they are quite right. The following verse is evidence enough:

Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

No son, grandson, great-grandson, nor any other descendant of the guilty Jews of Christ's day will suffer tribulation for what they did 2000 years ago.

C.P. Machovsky

www.tribulationhoax.com


Date: 27 Jan 2013
Time: 16:03:39

Your Comments:

For all Tommy Ice said in his debate with Gary Demar and the above documents, I found him unconvincing. I had been a dispensational-futurist for over many years, and I have not found any theiological group who abuses scripture with presupposition and guess work as much as pretributional dispensationalists. To a normal objectively truth seeking Christian, partial preterism makes more sense and scripture supported. It has questions that need to be answered and may be cannot be answered, but it makes more sense to the seeking heart. Dispensational pretribulationist have so much invested in their books, movies, and etc., that admiting that they are wrong will cost them so much (in material gains here on earth)and as a result they will stick to it till the end. I am really sorry.
 


Date: 14 Aug 2012
Time: 16:16:47

Your Comments:

Future tribulation to punish Israel for crucifying Christ 2000 years ago? Not by your chinny-chin chin!
A single Bible passage puts that to rest forever.
Ezekiel 18:
verse 2 "What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
verse 3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
verse 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

verse 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

These Scriptures are the domain of neither futurists nor preterists. They can't allegorized, and they can't be muddled with scholarly rhetoric. They say what they say. When one school of thought puts the emphasis on "this generation," don't mock them unless you are sure of what you are talking about. In the olden days of Israel, sins of the fathers mayhave been carried to the third and fourth generations. Not any more. And note Matthew 1:17. The generations of Israel began with Abraham, and ended in the days of Christ. There are Jews all over the world today. But they are all Gentiles. The Children of God are with Christ in heaven at this very moment.

C.P. "Mack" Machovsky
www.Tribulationhoax.Com
 



 

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