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AD70 Dispensationalism: According to that view, AD70 was the end of 'this age' and the start of the 'age to come'.    Those who lived before AD70 could only 'see in part' and such, lacking the resurrection and redemptive blessings which supposedly came only when Herod's Temple in Jerusalem fell.    Accordingly, AD70 was not only the end of Old Testament Judaism, but it was also the end of the revelation of Christianity as seen in the New Testament.

HYPER PRETERISM

"Full preterist" material is being archived for balanced representation of all preterist views, but is classified under the theological term hyper (as in beyond the acceptable range of tolerable doctrines) at this website.  The classification of all full preterism as Hyper Preterism (HyP) is built upon well over a decade of intense research at PreteristArchive.com, and the convictions of the website curator (a former full preterist pastor).  The HyP theology of final resurrection and consummation in the fall of Jerusalem, with its dispensational line in AD70 (end of old age, start of new age), has never been known among authors through nearly 20 centuries of Christianity leading up to 1845, when the earliest known full preterist book was written.  Even though there may be many secondary points of agreement between Historical/Modern Preterism and Hyper Preterism, their premises are undeniably and fundamentally different.

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING MATERIAL HAS BEEN CLASSIFIED AS "HYPER PRETERIST"


“Indeed, a correct view of this consummated reality truly does matter. The consequences of misunderstanding or saying that this resurrection hasn’t happened yet are devastating.”

Hyper Preterism: Defining "Hyper Preterism"- Criticisms from the Inside - Criticisms from the Outside || Progressive Pret | Regressive Pret | Former Full Preterists | Pret Scholars | Normative Pret | Reformed Pret | Pret Idealism | Pret Universalism

"if Jesus didn't come back in the first century when he said that he would, then you might as well throw your Bible out."

This page is being constructed as a "catch all" location for the many shocking and unbiblical statements coming from full preterist writings.  That view is being singled out because, for the most part, those authors are absolutely convinced of "the gospel truth of Covenant Eschatology" (Preston), and as a result of such confidence persuade many less studied people into joining their camp.  Danger can be seen in the idea of full preterism being a seperate community, set apart from Christianity as a whole.

"The place for full preterists to meet like minded people. I started this group so that full preterists can explore the doctrinal implications of what has been revealed to us. " Paul Bumgardner

It is a common characteristic of all fringe sects to insist that the Bible clearly teaches their position.  Never mind that there are numerous leading assumptions and following deductions which must be read into the text, etc.  Comments will include those which speak of the "certainty" of their opinions, as well as how "the Bible clearly teaches," etc.   Along these lines, I will also archive comments which speak as "we Preterists" or "as Preterists, we," in order to show the assumptions which are commonly thrown around as fact.

11/2010: "The ‘Preterist Community’ is a bit like a Swimming Pool full of genuine ‘seekers after truth’ (unlike the masses outside of it who simply believe what their TOLD to believe, no questions asked; a charlatans dream!)." (http://indirekt.si/read-what-revelation-studies-means-to-you)

The certainty of their opinion is often laid out in terms that declare that if they are mistaken, then it is the Bible's fault, or Jesus was a liar, etc.  Here is an example from a Pret-Universalist:  Thomas Whittemore "If Universalism be not true, it appears to us, that the word of God must be false." (Plain Guide, p. 272).  God bless Larry Siegle, but a recent comment by this brother shows the mental/spiritual road block that comes when Hyper Preterism is challenged regarding its assertion that every last single Bible prophecy was obsolete by the end of AD70:

"It is an EITHER/OR and not a BOTH/AND situation. Anything that smacks of ongoing "fulfillment" must be squashed like a bug."


Just Look... The Bible Clearly Teaches It!
("And if I'm wrong, then Jesus is not Christ")
 
 
Christianity doesn't deny the reality of suffering and evil. Our hope is not based on the idea that we are going to be free of pain and suffering. Rather, it is based on the conviction that we will triumph over suffering."
Brennan Manning

 

“If you are of a full preterist mindset, and are hiding your views from your pastor, what good are you doing for your church or for the body of Christ? Don’t put yourself above the church or The Church. If it is the truth, then so be it: come clean and be willing to take a stand. If you are in a position of leadership, then you have all the more reason to be up front and honest. Otherwise, how long do you intend to wait? Until you have secretly converted the entire church to full preterism (as if), or until you can secure enough people to split the church over your hobby horse end times position? Now is the time to choose."

Systematic Hyper Preterism
(aka "Full Preterism")



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Jesus: "It is finished" (AD30)
cf. Hebrews 10:19-22

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Hyper Preterism: Defining "Hyper Preterism"- Criticisms from the Inside - Criticisms from the Outside || Progressive Pret | Regressive Pret | Former Full Preterists | Pret Scholars | Normative Pret | Reformed Pret | Pret Idealism | Pret Universalism

William Bell
Max King
Don Preston
Larry Siegle
Kurt Simmons
Ed Stevens
 

SOME DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES OF SYSTEMATIZED HYPER PRETERISM

It is important to keep in mind that many ideas and doctrines full preterism appeals to - such as the complete end of the Old Covenant world in AD70 - are by no means distinctive to that view.   Many non HyPs believe this as well, so one need not embrace the Hyper Preterist system in order to endorse this view.   Following are exceptional doctrines which, so far as I've seen, are only taught by adherents of Hyper Preterism.:

DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES TAUGHT BY STANDARD FULL PRETERISM

  • All Bible Prophecy was Fulfilled By AD70

  • Atonement Incomplete at Cross ; Complete at AD70

  • The Supernatural Power of Evil Ended in AD70

  • The Spirit of Antichrist was Destroyed in AD70

  • "The Consummation of the Ages" Came in AD70

  • "The Millennium" is in the Past, From AD30 to AD70

  • Nothing to be Resurrected From in Post AD70 World ; Hades Destroyed

  • The Christian Age Began in AD70 ; Earth Will Never End

  • "The Day of the Lord" was Israel's Destruction ending in AD70

  • The "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ Took Place in AD70-ish

  • The Great Judgment took place in AD70 ; No Future Judgment

  • The Law, Death, Sin, Devil, Hades, etc. Utterly Defeated in AD70

  • "The Resurrection" of the Dead and Living is Past, Having Taken Place in AD70

  • The Context of the Entire Bible is Pre-AD70 ; Not Written To Post AD70 World

DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES TAUGHT BY VARIOUS FORMS
(under construction)

  • Baptism was for Pre-AD70 Era (Cessationism)

  • The Lord's Prayer was for Pre-AD70 Era (Cessationism)

  • The Lord's Supper was for Pre-AD70 Era (Cessationism)

  • The Holy Spirit's Paraclete Work Ceased in AD70 (Cessationism)

  • The Consummation in AD70 Caused Church Offices to Cease (Cessationism)

  • The Resurrection in AD70 Changed the "Constitutional Principle" of Marriage (Noyesism)

  • Israel and Humanity Delivered into Ultimate Liberty in AD70 (TransmillennialismTM)

  • The Judgment in AD70 Reconciled All of Mankind to God ; All Saved (Preterist Universalism)

  • Adam's Sin No Longer Imputed in Post AD70 World ; No Need to be Born Again (Preterist Universalism)

  • When Jesus Delivered the Kingdom to the Father in AD70, He Ceased Being The Intermediary (Pantelism/Comprehensive Grace?)

  • The Book of Genesis is an Apocalypse; is About Creation of First Covenant Man, not First Historical Man (Covenantal Preterism)

 

 

1/27/14: Hibbard and King - The Resurrected Body of Jesus Christ "the resurrection took place in AD 70 when Jesus opened the gates of Sheol/Hades (the grave). At that time, those dead believing saints, away from the presence of God, were released and taken to heaven together with those first century living saints. Jesus had told His disciples that He would go and prepare a place for them and would come again and receive them to Himself; that where He was, there they would be also (John 14:2-3). I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15 describe this joyous gathering together of both Old Testament saints and first century living believers to be taken to heaven by the Lord Jesus. The amazing and numerous “expectation statements” of the New Testament plainly show us the marvelous hope and dependence on the promises of the Lord Jesus that characterized these persecuted and mistreated disciples and followers of Jesus Christ. And they were not disappointed when the second coming, resurrection, and judgment (rewards, not condemnation) happened in connection with the ending of the Old Covenant and the judgment on Jerusalem at AD 70. We know these things assuredly by faith in the infallible promises in our Bible.

SECOND COMING WHEN? "AD 66" or "AD 70" or "AD."?

AD66: "the first century Jews did "see" Jesus at His return as Josephus implies when he records the angelic armies being seen in the clouds in AD 66.  The literal rapture idea also implies that the living and remaining saints "saw" Christ at His return when they were changed and caught up into the clouds to meet with Him at the destruction of the Temple in AD. (sic; source)

AD70: "Since Jesus came again in AD 70, He, for the first time ever, opened heaven to all of His people."



8/17/2013: David Curtis - The "True Hyper Preterist" (So says Hyper Preterist Michael Bennett)


Magical Thinking - "Gospel Truth of Covenant Eschatology"

 "I believe that Preterism is the essence of what the revealed nature of God's "eternal purpose" was meant to convey" / "The truth is that everything changed!”

"All that matters to me now is Christian Universalism & Preterism.  There's nothing else in Christianity that dictates my attitude toward others more."  http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/gog-magog/

  • Alan Bondar (2010) "The Gospel is only possible with a full preterist understanding of Scripture." (The Gospel Within Full Preterism)
     

  • Charles Coty - "Understanding preterism has revived my dormant faith, it has caused me to rise with a sense of victory. It uplifts my soul. It's causing me to revel in His Word as I thirst for truth. I hide it in my heart every chance I can. For years my futurism led to despair and disbelief. So the bottom line is if I’m involved in heresy, then this is the most blessed heresy of all time. This is the biggest heresy backfire in history!"
     

  • Thom Greenlee “Absolutely correct Sam, full preterism does indeed equal the gospel, reject full preterism and you reject the gospel. This has been what I have affirmed in every comment I make. Any rejection of full preterism makes Christ and the gospel of none effect.” 
     

  • Daniel Harden (1999) "While Dr. Gentry uses other terms to identify Preterism, it needs to be made clear that the only true Preterist is what some call Full Preterists, and that Partial Preterists aren’t truly Preterists at all, but Futurists with Preterist tendencies. So for the purposes of this article, when I refer to Preterism, I mean "Full Preterism". (Split Decision: Olivet Stands United)
     

  • Hibbard and King (2004) The Resurrected Body of Jesus Christ "the resurrection took place in AD 70 when Jesus opened the gates of Sheol/Hades (the grave). At that time, those dead believing saints, away from the presence of God, were released and taken to heaven together with those first century living saints. Jesus had told His disciples that He would go and prepare a place for them and would come again and receive them to Himself; that where He was, there they would be also (John 14:2-3). I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15 describe this joyous gathering together of both Old Testament saints and first century living believers to be taken to heaven by the Lord Jesus. The amazing and numerous “expectation statements” of the New Testament plainly show us the marvelous hope and dependence on the promises of the Lord Jesus that characterized these persecuted and mistreated disciples and followers of Jesus Christ. And they were not disappointed when the second coming, resurrection, and judgment (rewards, not condemnation) happened in connection with the ending of the Old Covenant and the judgment on Jerusalem at AD 70. We know these things assuredly by faith in the infallible promises in our Bible."
     

  • Brandon Littlejohn (2011) "I do believe preterism is Christianity, is the gospel, and is not peripheral."  (http://thereignofchrist.com/david-chilton-on-full-preterism/)
     

  • Martin and Vaughn "Kingdom living brings purpose and meaning to Christians and saves them from the destructive and empty life of self-centeredness so visible in modern culture apart from God.Understood in it's broadest sense, the victorious kingdom of God gives children who grow up in Christianity something to live for. Preterism will unleash a new vitality in the modern Church because it naturally suggest a kingdom focus for all of life." (BCS, p. 428)

  • Jean-Pierre (2008) "If AD70 has no meaning for you, you are still in your sins and under the law." (Youtube post)
     

  • Larry Siegle (2008) "The following argument is only valid for those who believe in the absolute authority and inspiration of the Scriptures and who are willing to accept that the Bible us to be understood without either "addition" or "subtraction"  preterism.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1632544%3ABlogPost%3A19427
     

  • Larry's Vision for Preterism: 'Preterism... may sound a bit cultish" - "I believe that Preterism is the essence of what the revealed nature of God's "eternal purpose" was meant to convey and that the local expressions of Preterism (churches) will represent that essence in every aspect. While such a statement may sound a bit "cultish" the reality is that there is only one "truth" and that conflicting theological views may continue to remain within the boundaries of established "orthodoxy" none will represent the fullness and completeness of God's redemptive plan as does Preterism."

  • "Futurism is not okay. Churches that teach and practice doctrine that affirms futurism are not okay. Why? Because what they believe, teach and practice leads down a dark pathway of constant waiting and disappointment. It renders these churches powerless to be the expression of Christianity that God intended. It is a lie and one that rejects the Bible and therefore false. Something false to the core ought to be uprooted and cast into the fire."
     

  • I will settle for nothing less than total victory. The religious world needs to be awakened to the message and told that they are going the wrong way on a dead end street. Resurrection-life is a PRESENT reality, one that each of us ought to cherish and one that ought to empower us to demonstrate to our friends, relatives and loved ones what God can and does do in our everyday lives--BECAUSE of what Preterism means in practical reality. I will not rest until the mission is complete. I will not lay down the sword and compromise with those who choose to go another direction.
     

  • "It is only a matter of time before believers who are convinced of the truth  will realize that an Internet-based "movement" is not sufficient to have a balanced theology apart from the tangible practical outgrowth in the form of a church. Nobody wants to start another denomination. However, it is impossible to accomplish certain tasks such as ordination, education, and practical ministry without an organizational framework. Within the next decade we will begin to see more people moving in this direction. History teaches that a "movement" evolves into something else eventually."
     

  • Ken Singleton - "How much more motivation do we preterists have to enable us to stand up against all detractors, now that God has opened our eyes to see that we have the perfection that they were only looking forward to. "
     

  • Starlight "Preterism is an approach to understanding scripture and it is revolutionary. It pits brother against brother and undermines established sacred religious dogmas because it sheds the light of truth upon past interpretive error. That is the real problem that you are looking at. We have been fighting this battle for the past 35 years in preterism and we have historically dealt with only the New Testament side of preterism. Now that Preterism is expanding and we have many that come wanting to continue the exploration in Genesis we are seeing a new battle erupt. "
     

  • Ed Stevens "If we assume that the preterist position is correct, then what about the prophetic scriptures that have all been fulfilled. "Are they then profitable any more for today?" ... Is this not taking away from Holy Scripture?' The value of Scripture is enhanced even more by its fulfillment. Now we are not just waiting for the consummation and given only a 'pledge' or 'seal' to get us by until the perfect arrives. We have the full and complete state of the kingdom. We live in His presence and eat at His table and commune with Him in His kingdom. The prophetic scriptures describe all these spiritual blessings that are ours now in the kingdom. Those passages are not just hopes and anxious longings. They are reality. They are realized eschatology."  (Further Reply to Vander Werff)
     

  • Taffy "Preterism and the preterist framework is the ‘only’ hermeneutic that rightly divides the ‘Word of God’." Animals and the Gentiles
     

  • Doug Wilkinson "Ladies and gentlemen, we must pursue the truth no matter the cost. If not for us, then for succeeding generations who will build on our foundation. Eventually, as we have said many times, FP will win the day and will become the new orthodoxy." (1/14/11)

 

Assumptions Aplenty Following False Deductions

  • "As Preterists, we.." "I am just asking why, as Preterists, we are applying that scripture to us now? "

  • "We, as Preterists" - If we as preterists say the last day has happened, then logically THE Resurrection has happened – whatever it was."
  • "As a preterist, I believe there is no need for it as proselytizing because God is all in all. However, sharing the good news is always a good thing." http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/837014-what-must-we-do-saved-5.html#ixzz0ZKrPtILi
  • "Hopefully we as preterists will more effectively apply the doctrine of peace. If we truly understand what God has already so graciously accomplished, should we not be at the forefront of the peace movement?" http://preterism.ning.com/profiles/blogs/do-we-hate-peace
  • "The only reason that our modern translations use "ages to come" (i.e. implying a future sense) is because the futurist translators are assuming that what Daniel and the other prophets were saying about the parousia is still in "our" future today. As preterists, we know that this is not the case, so we must consider that the literal meaning of Ephesians 1:21 and Ephesians 2:7 is not "future."  Animals and the Gentiles

  • "As preterists, we also know that the "Kingdom" was finished at the parousia (AD 70) because the "gospel of the Kingdom" reached "all nations" (Matthew 24:14) and "all creation" (Colossians 1:23) and "the whole world" (Colossians 1:6) BEFORE the parousia. Of course, Paul also plainly stated that "ALL Israel (including the full number of the gentiles)" were saved at the parousia (Romans 11:25-26).  Just like the "time statements" clearly pointed to the parousia within the apostolic generation (Matthew 24:34), these other passages show that there was no more place for anyone else in the Kingdom of God after AD 70 and that only "the house of Jacob" were its participants." Animals and Gentiles

  • "I, along with many other preterists, believe that the resurrection took place in AD 70 when Jesus opened the gates of Sheol/Hades (the grave). At that time, those dead believing saints, away from the presence of God, were released and taken to heaven together with those first century living saints.

And If Full Preterism Isn't True, Then...

It is a sad but common tendency of full preterists to treat the view as the gospel.  In fact, Don Preston often refers to "the gospel truth of Covenant Eschatology".   Now, it is one thing to be confident that your personal theology is correct, but there seems to be a point where such statements cross a line.

For instance, it is commonly declared in articles and discussions that full preterism is based upon the Word of God ; therefore, if you don't agree with that view then you don't agree with the Word of God.   Likewise, it is commonly stated that Jesus taught full preterism ; therefore, if that view is incorrect then Jesus is a liar.  There are many such comments - so many in fact that there may be a connection with those who leave full preterism for atheism, possibly having been convinced of the truth of those statements.

Here are two examples of such bold statements:

  • "if Jesus didn't come back in the first century when he said that he would, then you might as well throw your Bible out, because if it isn't inspired; it isn't any good. "

  • "If Jesus did not return, Christianity is a hoax"

There is something offensive to me about how these statements treat holy things like pieces of political meat.    They are irreverent, arrogant, and would probably be offensive to everyone in the history of Christianity except for the tiny few who have recently embraced systematized hyper preterism.  Imagine the gall of putting the inspiration of the scriptures and the trustworthiness of the Lord on the line over a system of eschatology that didn't even exist until roughly 1,900 years after the birth of Christ!   In all seriousness, there is a real wolf in sheep's clothing lurking behind such hardened dogmatism.   In some of these quotes one can easily get the feeling that if God, Jesus, the Apostles and the Bible do not conform to their theological demands, then hyper preterists would cast them aside as rubbish - just as they have done to their former church brothers and sisters who do not hold to the view.

"Only if God keeps His promises is He a God to be loved, believed, and obeyed. If the God of the Bible is no better at keeping His promises than the repeated failed prognostications of the men mentioned above, then He is not a God worth serving. And, if Christ's apostles, supposedly inspired by the Spirit of Christ, failed in their predictions, then they are false prophets as well." (Don Preston)

"I submit to you that either Scripture is wrong about the TIME of the second coming and thus not inerrant or our paradigms are wrong about the NATURE of the second coming. Which one of those are you more comfortable with, an incorrect paradigm or an uninspired Scripture?" (David Curtis)
 

...GOD IS A LIAR

Richard Anthony

  • "What that means is that when he told the first century believers that he was coming back soon, he really didn't mean it; he was giving them false information to keep them looking for Him. Can you live with that? If that was the case, what else did he tell them that wasn't true? Do we have a God who intentionally deceives men? Isn't it much easier to simply believe what Jesus said and believe that he came back in the first century, just like everyone said he would?  (Scriptures Say When Jesus Would Come!)

David Green

  • "To say then that the universal Church has preached a false gospel throughout history is to refute God’s covenant, and the power of His Gospel, and the authority of His Church. It is to, in essence, call God a liar." (Ecumenical Creeds)

  • "When God promises that something will last literally forever, that does not mean that His promise remains forever unfulfilled because the fullness of "forever" never happens.  If this was the case, God would inescapably be a liar, because His promises that certain things would "forever" be, or "never" end, or "never" happen" ("I will never leave you"), could never be FULL-filled, because the consummation of "forever" and of "never" can never fully arrive.  This is where the above "logic" game leads us:  To a liar-god like Hercules who will never fulfill a great many of his promises." (/24528)
     

...JESUS IS A LIAR / FALSE PROPHET

"Jesus emphatically told His disciples that He would return within their lifetime. So ask yourself. Did Jesus lie? Was Jesus wrong? Did Jesus fail? If He did not return when He said He would within the lifetime of His disciples, then He lied, which means He cannot be the Son of God, which means He cannot be your Savior. This is why Bible prophecy is important."

Grady Brown "The eschatology of the preterists is a tremendous witness to thepromise-keeping faithfulness of our God. It answers the accusationsof the skeptics who say that Jesus was a false prophet who couldnot keep His word. It also answers the confused victims of dispensationalism whose faith has been abused by the false prophets of our own day with all their failed predictions."  (That All May Be Fulfilled, p. 410)

Anthony Buzzard  "It defies common sense to believe that Jesus did not do what He said He would do when He said He would do it. "

Ken Davies "If the second coming wasn't in AD70, then Jesus is a liar." (Beyond the End Times)

Dan Delagrave  'Could it be any plainer?  Jesus directly stated that THE DISCIPLES would be witnesses unto him "unto the uttermost part of the earth" (another biblical figure of speech).  Did he lie?  NO!!!  The aforementioned verses in this article all affirm that the disciples completed the task given to them by Jesus of preaching the gospel to "all the world", or "the uttermost part of the earth", sometime shortly before fall of Jerusalem in A.D.70." (3/11 Newsletter)

David Green "Jesus said He would return in the first century (in His generation). Consistent futurism says He did not return in the first century. That makes Jesus and/or the writers of the New Testament false prophets."  (11/22/10)

Don Hochner "Matt. 24:27, 37, 39 - Jesus repeatedly said, "So shall the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man be." The same theme is in this context. I want to point out that some Futurists believe the "double fulfillment" or "type/anti-type fulfillment" theory, a method of interpretation. In other words, the theory says that prophecy may be fulfilled in 70 AD as typical form but will be completely fulfilled, coinciding with the "final" coming of Christ in the future. This kind of approach is a questionable hermeneutic. They must prove that Jesus and the NT writers clearly distinguished between two different comings of Christ. How would the first century Christians living before 70 AD have been able to distinguish between two different comings? I have not seen anyone get around with this problem. They expected all this to occur in their lifetime. Either we have to say it is all future (and make Jesus a liar for saying any of it would occur in that generation), or make it all fulfilled at 70 AD (and preserve Jesus' integrity). " (Parousia : Coming)

Jesse Mills "Jesus made it very clear when His return and the kingdom were to come. It would be during the lifetime of at least "some of those" He spoke to: "Some of you standing here shall not taste of death until you see the Son of Man coming In His kingdom" (Matt. 16:28. cf. Matt. 10:23 and 24:34).  If these things were not fulfilled in the first century as Jesus promised. His integrity is under serious question." (Waiting for the End)

Don Preston

  • "I find it impossible to escape the conclusion that either the Great Trumpet of the Lord sounded in that first century generation or Jesus' promise failed and man still has no escape from sin, from separation from God.. Thank God for the sounding of the Great Trumpet!" (With The Sounding of the Trumpet)

  • "If Jesus did not do what he said he was going to do, when he said he would do it, then we cannot believe him, he said not to believe him!"

  • "The preterist paradigm is the only view of eschatology that affirms that Jesus kept his word on time. "

Ed Stevens "If Jesus and the apostles taught imminency (as in fact they did), then a non-fulfillment destroys the inspiration and integrity of Christ and the apostles."

Mike Sullivan “I will go one step further and say if one misses it here on their eschatology, they have missed it in the soteriology as well. Are you sitting there thinking to yourself, ‘Hey man I’m a Calvinist and understand my soteriology! Maybe I’m still working through my eschatology but that’s okay.’ No it’s not ‘okay’ and if you don’t adhere to gospel eschatology, you not only do not consistently believe in the sovereignty of God, but you proclaim a Christ who FAILED.”

Virgil Vaduva

  •  "No, there is no “niggling problem” that I am aware of. If there is a problem, it is in the hearts of those blinded by tradition, ignorance and arrogance. The same people who call themselves followers of Christ, waste no time in rejecting Christ’s words, making Him a liar. The same people reject the testimony of the disciples, and their inspired written accounts."

  • "The decision about Jesus is the same, whether we are talking about His claims to deity, or His claims about the Second Coming. He was either a Liar, Lunatic, or Lord."

Harold Watkins "If He failed to do what He said He would do, as the argument goes, then His divinity is surely questionable."

 

..THE APOSTLES ARE LIARS

David Green

  • "Jesus said He would return in the first century (in His generation). Consistent futurism says He did not return in the first century. That makes Jesus and/or the writers of the New Testament false prophets."  (11/22/10)

Ed Stevens

  • "If Jesus and the apostles taught imminency (as in fact they did), then a non-fulfillment destroys the inspiration and integrity of Christ and the apostles."

 

 

...THE BIBLE IS WRONG

Richard Anthony

  • "There are those opponents who say that if you believe that Jesus came back in the first century then you don't need to read your Bible any more. I don't understand that argument, but if Jesus didn't come back in the first century when he said that he would, then you might as well throw your Bible out, because if it isn't inspired it isn't any good. I believe that the scripture is the inspired Word of God and therefore without errors. " (Scriptures Say When Jesus Would Come!)

  • "What is at stake here is the inspiration of Scripture. If Jesus was mistaken, or if he lied to us, then what good is the rest of the scripture?" (Scriptures Say When Jesus Would Come!)

William Bell

  • "Those persecuted (the living) would know by reading the gospel of Matthew and by the fulfillment (actual occurrence of the event) in A.D. 70, that God had avenged or vindicated them. By the way, all saints were told to flee from the city before it fell to the Romans in 70 A.D., (Matthew 24:15-20; Revelation 18:4). Not a single Christian was in the local city but all Christians living throughout the world were vindicated at it’s fall. Is the vindication of the righteous a local event? To limit this vindication locally would impugn the Scriptures. It would make Jesus a liar, for he testified that all would be vindicated when the city fell." (A Local Event?)

David Curtis

  • "I submit to you that either Scripture is wrong about the TIME of the second coming and thus not inerrant or our paradigms are wrong about the NATURE of the second coming. Which one of those are you more comfortable with, an incorrect paradigm or an uninspired Scripture?"

  • "God can tell time; God can read a calendar. When God says something is at hand it is near. For man to argue otherwise is to reject the inspiration of the scriptures; it is to impugn the faithfulness of God; it is to impugn the ability of God to communicate; it is to do the very thing Israel of old did and for which they were condemned! This is a very serious matter indeed!" (Inspiration and the Second Coming)

  • "This seems like the simple and clear answer that holds to the inspiration of Scripture. Jesus did what he said he would do."

Don Preston

  • "When men say something will happen soon, do they mean it may not happen for centuries, even millenniums? When men DO say something is imminent and the event does not happen shortly we say the man who made the promise was mistaken, a liar, a failure or a charlatan!"

Ed Stevens

  • "If the imminency statements cannot be trusted, nothing else in the NT can be trusted. " (Stevens' Response to Gentry: Conclusion )

  • "If Jesus has not come into possession of His kingdom yet, as He promised He 'truly' would in that generation, then the veracity of Christ and the whole Christian system goes out the window." (Further Reply to Vander Werff)

Bob Stokes

  • "Surely, the time-lines have to be admitted as giving us the clearest information as to when the events of the second coming were to take place. If the time-lines do not mean exactly what they say, then, . . . why put them in at all!!?"  members.shaw.ca/purelybiblical/articles/article_t2.htm


...
GOD IS UNFAITHFUL

David Curtis

  • "God can tell time; God can read a calendar. When God says something is at hand it is near. For man to argue otherwise is to reject the inspiration of the scriptures; it is to impugn the faithfulness of God; it is to impugn the ability of God to communicate; it is to do the very thing Israel of old did and for which they were condemned! This is a very serious matter indeed!" (Inspiration and the Second Coming)
     

...CHRISTIANITY IS FALSE

Ward Fenley

  • "If Jesus did not return, Christianity is a hoax and every liberal anti-Christian professor whoever darkened the doors of a Cathedral is correct. I would rather say that I don't know how it all worked out than deny the absolutely clear statements of Jesus Christ and the apostles that His return would take place within their lifetime." (Why I Became a Preterist)


...YOU ARE UNSAVED

Arthur Melanson

"If Christ didn’t return, as some Christians would have us believe, then no one can truly say he has salvation. If Christ hasn’t come out from the Presence behind the veil, then the work of atonement is an unfinished work. " (Appearing of the High Priest)

 

AND IF YOU DON'T AGREE, YOU ARE DISHONEST

Charles Geiser

  • "Is it possible at all to consider such language in Mark 8:38 ("when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels") to apply to Acts two? Any serious student of Bible prophecy will not give it a second look--Mark 8:38-9:1 constitutes end-time wording, not Acts two. And, again, we reiterate that separating Mark 8:38 from 9:1 by large amounts of time is not to extract truth from God's revelation but to please concepts already held that are not correct." (The Advent of Christ & Acts 2)

Don Preston

  • "HONEST STUDENTS cannot IGNORE Biblical language. For too long we have ignored or rationalized the language of imminence and other problems in scriptures. We have simply ignored or failed to see problems such as those posed by the Thessalonican situation. This writer urges the reader of this tract to be OPEN MINDED enough to HONESTLY consider the issues and questions we have raised. That may be uncomfortable to be sure. But the pursuit of truth has its own distinctive rewards. If we are going to claim to be seekers of truth we are going to have to honestly confront these issues." ("How Is This Possible?")
     
    "Has God changed his vocabulary? Is it true that "at hand" once DID mean "at hand" but now it can mean "a long time?" If so, where is the evidence for the change? Surely,
    the HONEST STUDENT can clearly see there has been no such change in God's vocabulary. God can tell time; God can read a calendar. When God says something is at hand it is near. For man to argue otherwise is to reject the inspiration of the scriptures; it is to impugn the faithfulness of God; it is to impugn the ability of God to communicate; it is to do the very thing Israel of old did and for which they were condemned! This is a very serious matter indeed!" (Can God Tell Time?)

AND IF YOU LEFT US, THERE IS AN EASY EXPLANATION AS TO WHY:

...YOU HAVEN'T REALLY LEFT

EndtimesDeut32  "Todd Dennis claims to be former former "full preterist" but I 'sense' that he just got tired of the mental discussion and interaction with some periferal perspectives and the emphasis of some different peoples within the studies. Thinking that your leaving the fulfilled understandings of the time of the end prophecies is sometimes more of a change of focus from some of the discussions and after having come to first realize the fuflilled perspectives.

"Todd coined a term of preterist idealist; I think to change the focus of applying the understandings to ones life RATHER than just assembling them as a creed and then constantly debating and fighting over the finer points."
(Full Preterists, do you know of any TRULY former full preterists, 1/7/11)


...YOU WERE NEVER A FULL PRETERIST

Joseph Vincent "I thank Todd too...a wonderful person, as you are Sam, but I hardly think you knew where you were at. If you did, then you were intentionally mischaracterizing yourself as a preterist" (On DiD to Sam Frost - 1/6/11)

Theolog "Todd Dennis was never a full preterist he was only pretending to be one because he thought it sensational and knows that sensationalism sells. He is all about money not Jesus.. I considered the idealist view 20 years ago and realized it was really just another form of allegory. Just how many interpretations are there to any given verse? a million?????? How many interpretations do you accept for any given verse????  Todd's going for the bucks. There is no money in being a full preterist yet I'm supprised he couldn't see that before making the claim of being a preterist." (


...YOU HAVE PERSONAL PROBLEMS, OR ARE EMOTIONAL

Ed Burley "Interestingly, as I pointed out in that first paragraph, these men taught these beliefs, taking on futurists with a fervor that was inspiring. Todd's scholarship and Roderick's zeal were both highly respected in the preterist world. Oftentimes, other preterists looked to them as leaders of this movement.  Now, it seems, they just won't admit that it is possible, in their system, to be fooled. In their new paradigm, they admit to being wrong, but those who still agree with their old paradigm are evil, damned, heretical, etc I liken it to a man who was a drug abuser who, when set free from drugs, lashed out in anger towards those who continued to use drugs." http://planetpreterist.com/content/todd-dennis-unable-wait-%E2%80%9Clast-leg%E2%80%9D

"It is with this belief that both Todd and Roderick (and so many others of late) have rejected preterism. They didn't reject it based on any kind of study of scripture (that's why you won't find any scriptural exegesis in their writings), but based on PURE EMOTIONALISM, the very thing that Roderick accused me of several years ago. While he claimed that I emotionalized my study of scripture, he held to preterism. When he finally saw that I actually had scripture behind what I was saying, HE rejected scripture for tradition and emotionalism. I'm afraid it is the same with Todd."

Anonymous Source "Todd blames the loss of his family and the divorce on full-preterism, and particularly universalism (which he believes is inherently rooted in full-preterism)...Todd blames you and a few other full-preterist promoters for his family tragedy." (Not so... the problem is doctrinal.)  http://planetpreterist.com/content/todd-dennis-and-his-cult-personal-destruction

Dan Haberman "Again, like Todd Dennis, he has personal issues that have caused an emotional theology." January 17, 2008 8:12 PM

Richard MacPherson "I can certainly understand how bitterness over the unravelling of his personal life could distort his view of us and Preterism as a whole. But I can honestly say that my own family and relationships are very strong and healthy, and my involvement with Preterism has in no way, shape or form jeopardized my relationship with my wife and kids. " http://planetpreterist.com/content/todd-dennis-and-his-cult-personal-destruction

Starlight "Just look around here recently and look at Todd Dennis, and Nathan Dubois and Kurt Simmons and notice the anxiety that is tormenting them as they end up deciding to retreat to those old comfortable religious slippers that they used to wear." Planet Pret 07/10/2007 - 06:38

Sullivan: "Sam knows he is loosing credibility among FP/Covenant Eschatology folks really fast, so he is desperately trying to re-define the terms so that we are now "hyper-preterists"---- Selah!  ..Sam has struggled with alcohol and his marriage and hasn't been experiencing the joy of the Lord as much as he wants to. He blames FP for this and continues to "drift" more and more back into the PP "orthodox" and "scholarly" world hoping this will solve his problems. Sorry Sam - it might temporarily, but in the long run it will only magnify your problems and specifically your conscience 7 fold! "

"I am actually thankful for Sam, Jason and Roderick’s departures from FP. Jason and Roderick’s habitual hatefulness and Sam’s “logical” inconsistencies (along with his hatefulness and deceptions) better fit within the futurist PP camps - and also in the way they attempt to refute FP. They definitely need to join hands with the Dee Dee crowd - both in bogus theology and in their hatefulness." Mike S. (PretCosmos/message/25035)

"In regards to Jason - I disagree and do not "respect" his "reasoning."  Notice that there was not ONE Scriptural reason given for him leaving FP - or did I miss it?  Just a bunch of pret blah emotional talking points - nothing new. " http://deathisdefeated.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2362512%3ABlogPost%3A38549&xg_source=activity&page=2

TNA "Exactly. Todd Dennis' over reaction is HIGHLY emotional. I hadn't been to Preterist Archive in a long time and was also a bit shocked by it changing over and taking on a very negative unfounded view of Full Preterism. But I must agree with Dave in that I think Todd could not deal with the implications and 'freaked out' for lack of a better term. Todd has also adopted a very odd view of Preterism which seems to combine Preterism with Historicism and is called Idealism. The problem that I see with this is that it faces the exact same issues that Historicism does, in that things are basically archetypes and not so much rooted in reality. Todd is off his rocker, particularly when we note that he tries like all non True Preterists to accuse us of the Hymeanean heresy - which BIBLICALLY was a timing issue, but of course Todd and his ilk make it out to something it is not. I am deeply disappointed that Todd has allowed emotions and anxiety to trump reason and logic. Tsk, tsk." (Talk Grace, 5/21/08)

Green "Jason has often been criticized for being too sarcastic. But at least as a full preterist, he sometimes aimed his sarcasm at those who were obviously resisting and contradicting the Bible. But now, he and Sam are themselves boldly resisting and contradicting the Bible, on a grand scale, and are bitterly ridiculing those who are defending it."  (PretCosmos/message/25037)

...YOU HAVE NOTHING SUBSTANTIAL TO SUGGEST, ANYWAY

Starlight "Would you decide like Kurt and Todd to just start over and develop your own system so that you can continue holding on to falsities? Preterist need to evaluate their motives and determine if they are being true to truth and whether they can live with the consequences of its findings. We are seeing more and more falling by the wayside such as John Noe and ect. When the tough gets going they fall by the wayside choked by the cares and concerns of this world. Not willing to fight the good fight and continue on toward the goal. " Planet Pret 7/10/2007 - 06:38

Plymouth Rock "
You already know how I feel about this guy. And I've tried to reach out to him via email. It was a pitiful exchange to say the least - he would not listen to reason. The irony here is it appears that it is Preterist Archive that is on its last leg, what with his "malignant orthodoxy" and all. Its a shame too because Preterist Archive used to be such a killer site." http://planetpreterist.com/content/todd-dennis-and-his-cult-personal-destruction


...YOUR METHOD IS WRONG, THEREFORE MESSAGE IS WRONG

  • Bskeptic "Some of these "anti-preterists" do seem to be guilty of some fairly vile behaviour. I guess you are lucky to be living in modern times, where they can't push for you "heretics" to be burned at the stake!" PretCoz 1/21/11

Richard McPherson:

  • "I wonder what other things Todd and others have in store. The scriptures teach to teach the “truth” in Love, but if one look at the tone and what is behind their articles. Love is far from it, especially when they refuse to debate or even carry a normal conversation on the topic or issue."

Virgil Vaduva

  • "Again, all I can hope is that everyone encountering FP in their journey will continue to grow from there rather than getting "stuck on AD 70." I would like to think I've done that...and many other friends have done the same thing. The difference is that some move forward calmly, through debate and discussions while others move on tossing some grenades behind them. Todd Dennis comes to mind, and others. That is unnecessary, but hey they get to live with their choices, not me."  Planet Pret 01/15/2011 - 11:14.0

    "John, is this in agreement with Todd Dennis' pret-idealism? If so, I am just wondering how you feel about Todd's methodology regarding promoting preterist idealism." 05/12/2008 - 16:02.

Scott Thompson "There is no sense of focusing on the reasons WHY Todd believes that the Full Pret paradigm is old. The focus should be on how over half the speakers at the NM conference agreed that FP had serious problems. Some are trying to patch the holes, such as Kurt Simmons with his 'global eschaton.' and John Noe and his version of pret-idealism that is still within the confines of the old paradigm. I really admire his view as should most Full Prets. Todd I believe is taking the bolder step of not putting new patches on old wineskins. If former Full Prets want to sculpt a new paradigm, then by God let them. It doesn't help to throw a fit about it, as quite a few are doing, trying to FORCE them to stay in what they consider to be a fundamentally flawed position." http://planetpreterist.com/content/todd-dennis-and-preteristic-idealism?page=1


...YOU NEED TO BE IGNORED OR SILENCED

Dave Green

  •  "As some of the members of this group will be happy to hear me say, I think it's time we stopped giving Sam attention.  It took some of us a while to figure it out, but his "infinity" philosophy is just a distraction from his sin --especially his sin of betraying God's Word.  As we know, Sam has sunk to new lows in recent days, weeks, and months.  In my opinion, his behavior has brought us to the point where we should stop dialoguing with him and stop rebuking him.  He's refusing to listen.  He's virtually cursing us.  He has united himself with PaulT and other people who anathematize us.  I know throughout the years we always wanted to believe the best in Sam, but in my opinion, it's about time we let him go." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/25812

Larry Siegle

  • "It is an EITHER/OR and not a BOTH/AND situation. Anything that smacks of ongoing "fulfillment" must be squashed like a bug. I do not object to ongoing "manifestation" of that which has already been accomplished. But the two concepts are NOT identical." (Cited at RCM, 11/10/10)
     

  • "You have been banned from Preterism Debate Sorry, Roderick, you can not access Preterism Debate as you have been banned. If you think you’ve been banned in error, you can contact the administrator." / "Sorry Roderick, I tried." / You have been banned from Preterism Debate. Sorry, Gatekeeper, you can not access Preterism Debate as you have been banned. If you think you’ve been banned in error, you can contact the administrator." / "Gatekeeper": "the problem isn’t that we are not allowed to post on full preterist sites such as SGP, and DID, but that we were posting on Preterism Debate, where at least on my part, I had a letter welcoming me to post whatever I believed. Then Larry all of a sudden chooses to ban us because we were pointing out the inconsistency of F&HP. Now we are banned we cannot even read there, so how does that further the F&HP cause? Unless a big part of the Cause, is to stay hidden and work in the Dark! Apparently F&HP can stand against anything except informed opposition!" (http://www.preteristblog.com/?p=3529)
     

  • "BOTH Roderick Edwards and Gatekeeper were removed from the Preterism Debate network today. The decision was a difficult one, but for the sake of member safety and in order to promote an atmosphere that promotes honest investigation of the Word of God, it was something that had to be done." (11/5/9)

Norman Voss

  • "Minor differences are one thing but someone who has written full Preterist books and articles and has significant influence isn't someone to just wink at when they appear to be trying to lead others towards a hybrid hermeneutic that has the potential to significantly undermine full Preterism. " (DiD 11/15/10)

Ken Palmer

  • "Sam will be back...in time.  He's a smart man, and knows way too much for his own good, which can be detrimental sometimes.  Just ignore him for now."  http://deathisdefeated.ning.com/profiles/blogs/more-psycobabble-from-sam?xg_source=activity&id=2362512%3ABlogPost%3A39311&page=2#comments


REGRESSIVE DOCTRINE: 
UNINTENDED
CONSEQUENCES OF HYPER PRETERISM


FOUNDATIONS OF "AD70 DISPENSATIONALISM":
THE AD70 WORLD/AGE HYPOTHESIS

THIS WORLD = OLD COVENANT AGE (UNTIL AD70)
WORLD TO COME = NEW COVENANT AGE (AFTER AD70)

Identifying "the age to come" solely with an earthly aion is under consideration for a special warning label, in that this misconception has become axiomatic in all "consistent preterist" theologies.  Certain orthodox preterists claim this "ages view" as well, so I won't at this time classify it as "Hyper Preterism".  It will suffice for now to simply call attention to the consequences of the "AD70 World/Age Hypothesis".

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry , nor are given in marriage ("Worthy to obtain" demonstrates that the "world to come" isn't received based upon simple chronology (i.e. AD70), but upon the grounds of worthiness, which can only be one's identification with the Cross of Jesus Christ.)


 

  1. Jesus Christ's triumph at Calvary (Cross/Ascension) is Subjected to the Roman triumph at Jerusalem for Pre-eminence.

  • Arthur Melanson - "Jesus Christ is our High Priest. “This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.” (Hebrews 6:19, 20) It is obvious by these verses that He did enter the Presence behind the veil. And the Christians of that generation waited! "
     

  • Stephen Douglas  "As long as the Old Covenant was kicking, as long as the Temple was standing and the Jewish cultus was active, the old system was functioning mockingly alongside the New Covenant built upon the shed blood of Christ; that’s what AD 70 was about - filling up the new wineskins and effectively bursting the old wineskins with the new wine. The “New World Order” of Christianity was the direct result of the fulfillment and abolition of the Old one." undeception.com/index.php/2008/09/14/first-things-and-last-things
     

  • Tim Martin (2007) "After all, the High Priest did more than just shed the blood of the sacrifice on the Day of Atonement. He had to go into the Holy of Holies (ascend) and apply the blood as directed in the Law, and then come back out (return) to show the people that his annual work on behalf of the people was complete. The preterist view is notably Hebraic in its view of Christ’s full work of redemption. Christ fulfilled all of the detail in the Law by A.D. 70."

    //

    "My comment at the end of this article regarding "the old rugged cross" was related to Todd Dennis' closing statement in his article:

    "Rather, I pray that all such Bereans will be given the wisdom to understand how far from the received gospel the HyP view truly is. Perhaps as this concept being exposed to them, love for the old rugged cross will inspire a sincerely critical examination of the "salvation in AD70" view."

    It should also be noted that the term "the old rugged cross" does not appear in Scripture. It is the title of a modern hymn penned by George Bennard in 1913. For those who will actually examine the hymn, which Todd alluded to first in his article, you will see that the hymn features prominent lyrics based in the doctrines of futurism.

    Furthermore, there are no commands in Scripture to have "love for that old rugged cross." However, the Roman Catholic Church does have a long history in venerating "holy" objects as "aids to worship."

    I categorically state that the physical object of the cross, wood and fiber, is not worthy of the love and adoration of Christians. Their deepest love should always be reserved for the living person who saved them and the God who is their righteousness.
    " // Tom: "insipid idolatry of a wooden object"
    http://planetpreterist.com/modules.php?name=News&file=comments&op=showreply&tid=41505&sid=5582&pid=41496&mode=&order=&thold=#41505

 

  • Virgil Vaduva "Preterist Idealism seems to be, willingly or unwillingly, minimizing the importance of eschatology, and playing games about which chapter is the most important in the Biblical story. I read over and over again about the Cross Event being the centerpiece, divorced from eschatology, but if the eschatology is not that important, why is he tagging this new movement Preterist Idealism? Why Preterist at all? Why integrate eschatology into it at all? Why not just call it Christian Idealism, since Christ is the centerpiece of it all?" [TD - Good points.]

 

AD70 DISPENSATIONALISM NATURAL CONSEQUENCE:
 

Parts of the Bible Not Meant for Post-AD70 World

  • Charles Coty "It is of immense value to realize that when we read the Bible we are reading someone else’s mail." "By the mere fact that God meticulously preserved the Scripture for us is testimony to the fact that the Bible has every bit the relevance today as it did 2,000 years ago.. Before we can determine how a passage applies to us we must first understand what it was intended to mean to the original recipients. It requires us to remove our 21st century glasses and replace them with those warn by Jesus, Peter, Paul and John. " charlescoty.blogspot.com/2008/01/hermeneutical-principles.html
     

  • David Curtis - David Curtis - The "True Hyper Preterist" (So says Hyper Preterist Michael Bennett)
     

  • Laren - "This process I'm going through, questioning, "Is this it, is this all there is, just this life??" Did you ever question those thoughts as you came to a fulfilled view?? I used to be comfortable in that scripture provided an answer to my searching questions, now I feel i'm just hanging out there. Maybe I'll get to the point of not caring, sometimes I hate my mind, always asking questions."

    "But at least Jesus got to be resurrected from the dead to live on.
    We don't. That's what sucks, at least what I gather from the fulfilled view."

    "I just wish we had the word of God to go to to back it up.
    Before coming to a fulfilled viewpoint, I felt confident in that the bible spoke of a resurrection post this physical life. But from a full fulfilled view, there is really just speculation, but I do see your point, and appreciate it."
     talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=1443
     

  • Ed Stevens - "When one reads back through the NT after becoming a Preterist, he immediately begins to notice some things that no longer apply after AD 70. This naturally raises the question, "What else no longer applies?" What goes and what stays, and how do we know?" preterist.org/preteristbookstore.asp
     

  • Bob Stokes "If all prophecy was fulfilled in the past, how does that apply to us?"


All God's Enemies Destroyed in AD70, Despite Continuance of Sin, Death, Devil

  • Kevin Beck: "In his famous allegory of Hagar and Sarah, the apostle Paul understood Sinai to signify Israel — and hence humanity — under the burden of law. With the arrival of the New Jerusalem, ISRAEL AND HUMANITY WOULD BE DELIVERED INTO ULTIMATE LIBERTY. For Paul, these “things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar — for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children — but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all” (Galatians 4:23-26).  transmillennial.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/parousiawhat-mountain/

  • Dave Embury "Thus if as Pantelism contends – that in the AD70 Parousia of Christ the "last enemy" to be destroyed was "the death", and if along with this death the venom of "the sin" duly empowered by "the law" likewise suffered demise; and if further, God having reconciled all things in heaven and on earth to Himself through the blood of Christ's cross [Col 1:20]; THEN regardless of what you or I or anybody else thinks or reasons – God has no more enemies. Now even if in the ignorance or arrogance of some men's feeble thinking they consider themselves enemies of God, from HIS perspective they are not [Col 1:21]."

  • Don Preston "So, in prophecy, the coming of the Day, the Day of Salvation, was eschatological to the core. It involved the restoration of the “earth”, the resurrection of Israel, the kingdom, the New Covenant, and virtually every tenet of salvation that one can possibly imagine. It was deliverance from the darkness of sin, despair, alienation, and death. This means that when Paul said, “Now is our salvation nearer than when we first believed”, he was not saying that they were nearer to their personal death, or, that the passing of the few years from their conversion had brought them that much nearer to their salvation in some vague, elastic, ambiguous way. Paul was saying that the Day of Salvation, the fulfillment of the Old Covenant promises of the Day, stood on the very brink of fulfillment."  eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=622&Itemid=61

     

The Lord's Prayer was for Pre-AD70 Dispensation

  • William Bell:  Do You Pray For The Kingdom to Come? (2009) "As a third grade student, we had devotionals in our public school classroom everyone morning which involved the class singing in unison what is typically known as the Lord’s prayer, See Matt 6:9–13.after studying the prayer, I discovered that I could not conscientiously pray that prayer as Jesus taught his disciples to pray it...  We no longer live in expectation. We therefore should no longer pray, your kingdom come, but rather, offer gratitude and thanks for the kingdom and live as it demands."   
     

  • Ken Singleton - "As true Israel was converted to Christ they became subjects of the Kingdom and ruled with Christ upon the land (the millennial reign of the saints), a rule that extended to the whole world as the Gentiles also came into the new nation. This continued up to AD70 when the fullness of the Gentiles had come in. Once all Christ’s enemies were defeated the Rule/Kingdom was handed back to the Father with Christ co-ruling with him forevermore (1 Co 15:24-28).,, On a personal note, as a result of believing the above, I can no longer pray the Lord’s Prayer as is. Instead I simply thank Him in my heart that His Kingdom came as and when He promised." (The Lord's Prayer)


The Lord's Supper was for Pre-AD70 Dispensation

  • William Bell - "For example, if one were to fail to consider the time statements and facts found in other passages, the kingdom could be taught as yet future. Jesus taught the disciples to pray, "Thy kingdom come" (Matt.6:10). At the time those words were spoken, the kingdom was clearly future and therefore the propriety of praying for its arrival. " (The Parousia and Acts 1:11)

  • Charles Giteau (1879) "Christ said, "Do this," to wit, the Lord's Supper, "till i Come, in remembrance of me." This holds good only till He comes. The church all these ages has not known of His coming at the siege of Jerusalem, A. D. 70, and consequently has been taught to expect Him, and to commemorate His coming by the sacrament of the "Lord's Supper." Whereas, in fact and in truth, He came at the destruction of Jerusalem A. D. 70, and therefore, the exhortation to " do this " (to wit, the Lord's Supper), "till I come," is wholly irrelevant." (The Truth, pp. 68-69)

  • John Humphrey Noyes (1867) "Of the ordinance of the Lord's Supper it is said, " As oft as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show [or preach] the Lord's death, till he come." 1 Cor. 11 : 26. Now since Christ in his first coming was a suffering victim, but Christ in his second coming was a conquering king, it is evident that an ordinance commemorating his humiliation may have been appropriate before his second coming, and inappropriate afterwards. If we imagine Christ has not yet come, we shall judge, and that with Paul's authority, that the eucharist is still an appropriate, and an enjoined ordinance. But if we believe that Christ's humiliation ceased at the destruction of Jerusalem, that he was vindicated and proclaimed King of the world by that event, we may conceive that some other ordinance, more expressive of victory, would be more appropriate to the present time. At all events, Paul's injunction of the ordinance cannot be quoted as applicable to us; for the expression " till he come," limits that injunction to a time long ago past; and if we continue the observance of it, we must derive our warrant for the practice simply from its expediency, not from its authority." (Handbook of the Oneida Community, p. 49)

  • David Thom (1845) "As to what Mr Townley says respecting my having "no ordinance of the Lord's Supper in" my "chapel," he may find the answer virtually involved in the principles laid down by me in the last section. To us to whom Christ hath revealed himself as head of a spiritual church of which we are members, and to whom he hath thus come in spirit in the earnest of his second glorious advent, it appears that external ordinances are, like external churches, by that very fact shewn to be ended. Those who think otherwise, if taught from above at all, we bear with, on the principles laid down in Romans, chapter fourteenth. That is, provided that the ordinances which they continue to observe have been, at one time, in reality of divine institution ; such as baptism and the Lord's supper: not otherwise." Three Grand Expositions of Man's Enmity to God Richard McPherson (2002) (The Lord's Supper: Is it for Today?)

What do Preterists Believe About the Lord's Supper?
 



No More Need For Prayer

  • Lynn  - "In Ephesians 6:18 they needed to "pray at all times in the Spirit . . .with all perseverance and petition for all the saints." But I think that they had to do so only until “the evil day” (verse 13) when the Lord came in vengeance destroying the holy city Jerusalem in 70 AD. So, yes, my opinion is that we’re not required to pray anymore." talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=398&highlight=Faith+required


No More Need For Faith or Hope ; Hope is a Sickness

  • "Yomi said: If Preterism maintains that Christ returned circa AD70, then the resurrection (whatever the nature, and I will come to that later) took place then, and preterism has removed my hope and the hopes of millions of believers since then till today; has it not?

MG's Answer: “Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when the desire comes, it is a tree of life.”(Proverbs 13:12).  "A desire accomplished is sweet to the soul.”(13:19) Yomi you should not be disturbed that Christ returned in the first century because that means we have a realized hope.  A delay or non-fulfillment of Christ would make the heart perpetually sick as a result of a defaulted promise." (Cite, #60)

  • Dallas - "I believe that in AD 70 ALL eschatology and redemption through reconciliation took place... I also believe that all things are fulfilled, ALL people are now saved and ALL have been included into the fulfillment., i don't even have faith. my faithfulness is weakness and rewardless... I however trust that because of the FAITH that was in CHRIST I am. I have been included in everything, all things because of... I have repented from faith and trust that because of what Jesus did I am good and right... even as good and right as God Himself for in Jesus I have become the righteousness of God" www.talk-grace.com/search.php?searchid=21375
     

  • Erik - "If "personal faith" were required today, then who really would qualify, as nobody can even agree what the true faith is We just don't interpret the "faith" that "saves", as a mandatory response from each individual person in the world, in order for them to be accepted into Heaven when they die." talk-grace.com/showthread.php?p=15142#post15142
     

  • David Curtis - Our hope and desire has been realized in the second coming of Christ, the tabernacle of God is with men, He dwells with us. We live in the glories of the New Covenant age."   (Theme of Revelation)
     

 

The Christianity of the Bible Not the Christianity of Post AD70 World

William Bell
- "The confirmation or proof of the apostles' inspiration and miraculous power was their very ability to confer or impart miraculous gifts to believers through the laying on of their hands, (Acts 6:5,6; 8:17,18; 19:6; II Tim. 1:6). It is important, however, that one take into consideration the time frame of what is taught in Mk. 16:17-18."

The Lord was "with" the apostles in the "miraculous" confirmation of the word. Matthew's account of the great commission affirms the same. "Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age, (Mt. 28:20, NASV). Is one to suppose that the Lord miraculously confirmed the apostles' preaching but not their teaching? Was he not "with" them in their teaching in the same way? Here, then, is the Lord promising to guide the apostles in inspiration and to confirm their words through imparting signs through them until the END OF THE AGE!  This is the Jewish age which lasted until 70 A.D." (When Did Miracles Cease?)

"Paul states that the gift of inspiration to apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers would continue till "we all come to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (full-grown) man, (Eph. 4:11-14). It has been demonstrated that the full-grown man (perfect) state is equivalent in meaning and time to "when that which is perfect is come," and the "face to face" presence of Christ, (1 Cor. 13:8-12; Rev. 22:4). Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. Therefore the "unity of the faith" equals to the "face to face" presence in the revelation of Jesus Christ at the end of the Jewish age.

Dan Harden - “The Great Commission was a special time of inspired Apostolic activity that will never be repeated”  

New Earth Christian Studies - "It was not that the New Covenant had not yet begun: It had, but it was not in full effect, until the Old Covenant was utterly destroyed. They were free of it's burden of slavery, but until the first tabernacle was removed, the way into the Holy Place and complete access to God was not disclosed. The Christians of the time were in a unique position: They were living not just between covenants, but in the end times of the Old Covenant which coincided with the beginning of the New." (God's Promises Fulfilled)

Michael Sartori "Is the church (in it's current traditional format) really how it is supposed to be? As a Full Preterist I tend to believe the church set up / government as established in the N/T was for a transitional period, from AD 30 to AD70." (Magi Forum - http://jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html) 

"Miracles were still in use to confirm Jesus' teaching and authority and the Old Covenant had not yet passed away (Hebrews 8:13). The church still needed pastors, elders, shepherds etc. to enable the transition to run smoothly. "  (Magi Forum -http://jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html)

Ed Stevens -
"That 40-year period between Pentecost and Holocaust was just a transition phase between “this age” and “the age about to come.” It is “the age about to come” that was to be the eternal one. We have several examples of 40-year transitional periods in the OT (wilderness wandering, David’s reign, etc.). According to Moses and the prophets the transition between the two ages was not supposed to be eternal, nor even a long protracted period." (Stevens Responds to Gentry)

 

The Cross Incomplete for Salvation / Eternal Life - AD70 Mandatory

William Bell -
"Entrance into the Most Holy is a blessing of the "age to come." Entrance was opened up at the fall of the temple. Therefore, the blessings of the "age to come" were opened up or received at the fall of the temple, specifically ETERNAL LIFE! When exegetes quit dividing Matthew and begin "rightly dividing" the word on biblical eschatology, eternal life will be seen in Matthew where it is seen in Hebrews, in A.D.70, at the fall of the temple and Jewish commonwealth. In fact, this is where it will be seen throughout all the holy scriptures." (This Present Evil Age)

"If that redemption were "completed" at the cross or on the day of Pentecost, then miraculous gifts were a useless commodity to the church as it relates to the same. Further proof that the redemption was not complete was the "futurity" of the inheritance which would be received at the second coming.. The completion of that redemption was clearly future at the time of the writing of Ephesians, about A.D. 58, though not removed from that first-century generation.. Therefore, the redemption of the purchased possession was completed in A.D. 70, at the fall of Jerusalem which corresponds in time to the end of the Jewish age and coming or parousia of Christ. This was the "day of redemption" and the termination of the "earnest" or miraculous gifts." (When Did Miracles Cease)  

"When was that redemption completed? This is vital to an understanding of when those gifts would cease. Paul writes, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption, (Eph. 4:30)." (When Did Miracles Cease)  

Don Preston
"The process (and ground) of taking away of sin undoubtedly began at the Cross, as Hebrews 9:26 affirms. It was not perfected and completed there, however." (eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=477&Itemid=61)

"The New Day fully came in 70 AD when Jesus returned in judgment of the Old World of Darkness and brought the New Day of Salvation. The Day has come." (The Day Has Come)

Larry Siegle - "The complete removal of the Old Covenant system and the establishment of the New Covenant system opened the door for those willing and obedient to enter into salvation “in Christ” and to once again allow the covenantal blessings of heaven to be poured out upon them."  preterist.wordpress.com/2008/11/08/when-paradise-is-restored-at-last/

 

Judgment, Hell and Hades Destroyed; Death Swallowed Up in AD70

Benjamin Franklin "I have now proved beyond all doubt, that my friend does not believe that sinners of our day will ever be judged or punished in any way for sin, not even by the lashings of conscience, for the coming of Christ to judge the world, was all fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem, and since that time there has been no hell, judgment, or punishment of any kind for the ungodly, and never will be ; and therefore my friend and myself can talk and believe just what we please, without any danger of being brought to punishment, for there will not — there cannot, and there shall not be any future judgment. Yet he says the wicked shall not go unpunished. Sublime theory ! Glorious consistency ! Who will prostitute his reputation for good judgment and sense, so as to swallow down such an egregious bundle of silly contradictions and nonsense."  (An Oral Debate on the Coming of the Son of Man, Endless Punishment, and Universal Salvation: Held in Milton, Ind., Oct. 26, 27, and 28, 1847)

William Bell
The sting of [the death] is [the] sin, and the strength of [the] sin is the law." What is the strength of sin? It is "THE LAW." What Law? The Law of Moses. "Moreover the law entered that the offense might about..." (Rom. 5.20). Paul is talking about "the sin" committed by Adam, which brought about "the death" of Adam, which was not physical death. Adam did not die physically the day he ate; however, just as his eyes were opened the day he ate, he died. Adam was not physically blind before he ate of the tree. The statement concerning his "eyes being opened" refers to his awakened conscious resulting from sin (Gen. 3:7)
In like manner, his death was not a physical death, but spiritual death or condemnation (Rom. 5:18) which resulted in his being expelled from the Garden and hence cut off from the tree of life. That is "the death" caused by "the sin" of rebellion against God-man seeking to be his own god, guided by his own will and strength. To be cut off, separated from God and the tree of life is "the death." This is why the victory over sin is stated in the present tense in 1 Cor. 15:57. "But thanks be to God, who gives, [literally, is giving] us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. God was at that time in the process of fulfilling the law and setting it aside. The law would no longer have the power to condemn because of the gospel. The time of consummation was near- at hand. Soon, the Lord would come and fulfill all things spoken by the prophets. That is when the law would pass, when sin and Hades (death) would be destroyed. It all came to pass in AD70, when Jesus said, these are the days of vengeance in which all things which are written may be fulfilled (Lk. 21:22,32)." (Review of William Jones "An Examination of the A.D. 70 teaching, p. 73-74)



Ed Burley
 "We are living in the post-Parousia (Second Coming) world of what some call “The Messianic Age”, or “The Age of Grace”. It would also rightly be termed, “The Post-Death Age”. But if we are post-death; if death has been rendered useless and the Law no longer condemns, what is it that Jesus “saves” us from today? Death is dead. All who were dead in Adam, are made alive in Christ. This is the completion of the promise. While the firstfruits (the believers before Jesus’ Second Coming) had a specific purpose in the first century, through which that purpose was fulfilled through faith, today’s people have a different purpose. Our good news that we share is no longer “live lives pleasing to God”, but “God is pleased with you, live in that reality”. Is it not ironic that the more religion preaches how much God does not like us, and how much we are failing to keep his Law, the more the society sinks into the depths of despair? This must change.

Death is dead. Jesus has brought life. It is imperative that we get that message out. All people should live in that reality, for death is dead. It is nullified. It has been destroyed. Glory be to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." 
angelsofliberty.blogspot.com/2008/08/death-of-death.html


David Embury
(2008) - "Where has your consistent preterism gone? God has already resolved the "death" issue, thus there is no continuance of death post mortem – that's the good news of the Gospel – the death has been dealt its final blow, and as a consequence God has no more enemies. In the Parousia DEATH being the LAST enemy was destroyed, and that pretty much covers ALL enemies – there can be NO enemies beyond this LAST one. Therefore, IF the last enemy to be destroyed was death, then regardless of what you, I or anyone else thinks – God has no more enemies from God's perspective. Having made peace through the blood of Christ's Cross, God HAS reconciled all things in heaven and on earth to Himself. So even if in the ignorance or arrogance of some men's feeble minds they consider themselves as God's enemies, from HIS perspective they are not; even Paul affirms this"
planetpreterist.com/news-5559.html#41232

Virgil Vaduva - "That is why in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul can happily say "Where, O death is your victory?  Where, O death is your sting?"  He is not talking about physical death but spiritual death because he specifies sin and Jesus' victory over spiritual death in the very next verse: "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.  But thanks be to God!  He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.  Jesus conquered death and reunited us with God." (Answer to Gromacki)

 

"The Law" and the "Power of Sin" Was Utterly Removed in AD70

William Bell The sting of [the death] is [the] sin, and the strength of [the] sin is the law." What is the strength of sin? It is "THE LAW." What Law? The Law of Moses. "Moreover the law entered that the offense might about..." (Rom. 5.20). Paul is talking about "the sin" committed by Adam, which brought about "the death" of Adam, which was not physical death. Adam did not die physically the day he ate; however, just as his eyes were opened the day he ate, he died. Adam was not physically blind before he ate of the tree. The statement concerning his "eyes being opened" refers to his awakened conscious resulting from sin (Gen. 3:7) In like manner, his death was not a physical death, but spiritual death or condemnation (Rom. 5:18) which resulted in his being expelled from the Garden and hence cut off from the tree of life. That is "the death" caused by "the sin" of rebellion against God-man seeking to be his own god, guided by his own will and strength. To be cut off, separated from God and the tree of life is "the death." This is why the victory over sin is stated in the present tense in 1 Cor. 15:57. "But thanks be to God, who gives, [literally, is giving] us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. God was at that time in the process of fulfilling the law and setting it aside. The law would no longer have the power to condemn because of the gospel. The time of consummation was near- at hand. Soon, the Lord would come and fulfill all things spoken by the prophets. That is when the law would pass, when sin and Hades (death) would be destroyed. It all came to pass in AD70, when Jesus said, these are the days of vengeance in which all things which are written may be fulfilled (Lk. 21:22,32)." (Review of William Jones "An Examination of the A.D. 70 teaching, p. 73-74)

Don Preston -
"I find it impossible to escape the conclusion that either the Great Trumpet of the Lord sounded in that first century generation or Jesus' promise failed and man still has no escape from sin, from separation from God. The Good News is, the Trumpet sounded and the final barriers between God and man were removed as God took away the last vestiges of "the law" which held the "power of sin." Man can now be fully justified and live in full assurance that "he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (John 5:24). Thank God for the sounding of the Great Trumpet!" (With The Sounding of the Trumpet)

Kurt Simmons - The Attack on Full Preterism: Which Death Was Defeated in AD70? - "Covenant Eschatology: Inherently Universalistic" The evidence is in: full Preterism is not the culprit linking Preterism to Universalism. The real culprits are false notions regarding the source and nature of mankind’s condemnation and his corporate justification as articulated by some in the Preterist community. Reformed Preterists, like Frost, interpret the “death” cast into the lake of fire in Rev. 20:14 as imputed Adamic guilt. King, on the other hand, equates it with annulment of the Mosaic law. Because these are universal in terms of their asserted condemnation, their destruction works universal justification, apart from faith and obedience. As they unconditionally condemned, so their annulment unconditionally justifies. It is as if the whole race were arraigned before the court of heaven upon an indictment reciting these two laws. The annulment of those laws ipso facto destroys the indictment, as there is no longer any law to base an accusation upon. Hence, all men stand acquitted. In the words of Sam Frost: “There is no law taking into account our sins.”

Jim Hopkins "Not seen in this paper is the meaning of all of this for our generation, but out of this, one should see that the Mosaic Law, the period of types and shadows, extends through the period of the judgment on Israel and did not pass away at the cross. Out of this typical arrangement we should see that the saints now partake of the spiritual arrangement, the Kingdom of God." (The Day Drawing Near
)
 

The Creation Which Was Groaning Was Old Covenant Israel

William Bell - "
We submit then, that the "creation" of Romans 8:18-23, is a reference to O.T. saints who, under the law, were in the bondage of corruption of sin-death, yet waiting/groaning in pain to be delivered from that bondage when the firstfruits (N.T. saints) were manifested or received the adoption of sons. It is not necessary to exclude Gentiles from the "whole creation" of Romans 8. (See The Cross And The Parousia Of Christ, by Max R. King, pp. 525-526). The time of fulfillment is the completion of the work of the eschatological Spirit at the end of the Jewish age in A.D. 70.. Finally, the identity of the creation harmonizes with Old Covenant Israel as rational, intelligent mankind who were in need of deliverance - real deliverance from the bondage of real sin-death, and this through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ." (The Illusion of the Conclusion)
 

Old Covenant Israel Was Delivered From the Bondage of Sin-Death in AD70

William Bell - "
Old Covenant Israel must be introduced into the equation as consideration of the creation in Romans 8. There was a real need to deliver them from the bondage of sin-death. Christ took on the nature of his brethren (Old Covenant Israel) that he might suffer sin-death with them in order to destroy the power of Satan and subsequently deliver his brethren from that bondage.. There was, therefore, a real need for Christ to deliver his brethren (O.T. Israel) from the power of sin death, a bondage to which they had become subject, "not willingly," i.e., not of their own choice but by God's placing them under the law which could not give the life (Gal.3:21), and the freedom from sin and death (Heb.10:4), which they desired. This could only be accomplished through Christ by means of his death and the outpouring of the eschatological Spirit during his age-ending reign, (1 Cor.15:24-26). .. There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, AND SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB; FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT UNTO THEM WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR (O.T. ISRAEL'S) SINS," (Rom.11:26,27; 13:11,12)." (The Illusion of the Conclusion)
 

The New Heavens and Earth Entered the World in AD70

David Curtis - "We dwell in the New Jerusalem in the very presence of God and the invitation is still going out today. Notice the invitation that goes forth from the New Heaven and Earth" (Gospel Preached to All the World?)

Jessie Mills
- "By destroying the Jewish State and sending the gospel of Christ throughout the Gentile world, He 'will reign for ever and ever'.  Time without end.  Yet some today are teaching that the end of the world is just ahead.   They say it will soon burn to ashes, thus destroying the kingdom where Christ was to reign 'for ever and ever'." (Revelation Survey, p. 157)
 

The Consummation of the Ages Was in AD70

William Bell
- "Jesus spoke of the consummation of an age concurrent with Jerusalem's fall in A.D.70.." (This Present Evil Age)
 

AD70 Was The Goal of the New Testament

William Bell
- "The goal of New Covenant saints was the revealing of sons which equals receiving the adoption of sons/redemption of the body. This is placed opposite to deliverance from the bondage/slavery of corruption, a state from which New covenant saints were already being delivered though it had not yet reached consummation as Paul argues. " (The Illusion of the Conclusion)
 

 The "Unity of the Faith" Came in AD70

William Bell - "Fifth, Paul states that the gift of inspiration to apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers would continue till "we all come to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (full-grown) man, (Eph. 4:11-14). It has been demonstrated that the full-grown man (perfect) state is equivalent in meaning and time to "when that which is perfect is come," and the "face to face" presence of Christ, (1 Cor. 13:8-12; Rev. 22:4). Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. Therefore the "unity of the faith" equals to the "face to face" presence in the revelation of Jesus Christ at the end of the Jewish age. "  (When Did Miracles Cease)
 

Miracles Ceased in AD70

William Bell - "Miracles were to last until the completion or end of the Jewish age.. Therefore, the scriptures limit the termination of miracles to the end of the Jewish age in 70 A.D.." (When Did Miracles Cease)

"If that redemption were "completed" at the cross or on the day of Pentecost, then miraculous gifts were a useless commodity to the church as it relates to the same. Further proof that the redemption was not complete was the "futurity" of the inheritance which would be received at the second coming.. The completion of that redemption was clearly future at the time of the writing of Ephesians, about A.D. 58, though not removed from that first-century generation.. Therefore, the redemption of the purchased possession was completed in A.D. 70, at the fall of Jerusalem which corresponds in time to the end of the Jewish age and coming or parousia of Christ. This was the "day of redemption" and the termination of the "earnest" or miraculous gifts." (
When Did Miracles Cease)  

Michael Sartori - "Miracles were still in use to confirm Jesus' teaching and authority and the Old Covenant had not yet passed away (Hebrews 8:13). The church still needed pastors, elders, shepherds etc. to enable the transition to run smoothly. "  (Magi Forum -http://jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html)
 

Spiritual Gifts Ceased in AD70

David Curtis
"When that time arrived in AD 70, there was no longer a need for spiritual gifts." (The Permanence of Love)

 

The Work of the Holy Spirit Ceased in AD70

William Bell - "When was that redemption completed? This is vital to an understanding of when those gifts would cease. Paul writes, "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption, (Eph. 4:30)." (When Did Miracles Cease)

"Second, the bodies in this context were only those of Christians who were physically alive. Third, the indwelling of these bodies was by a "then present" (A.D.57) miraculous indwelling of the Spirit whose "completed" work was future but not removed from the age of the miraculous -- by His Spirit that indwells you." (Challenging Concept of the Resurrection)

 

The Great Trumpet Sounded in AD70

William Bell - " In addition, it is not without significance that this gathering of the saints in Matt.24:31, is preceded by the great sound or voice (marginal rendering) of a trumpet. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob heard "this" trumpet..  Equally certain is the fact that Matthew 24 places the sounding of that trumpet at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, before that first-century generation passed, (Matt.24:31,34)." (The Dead Are Raised)

Don Preston - "I find it impossible to escape the conclusion that either the Great Trumpet of the Lord sounded in that first century generation or Jesus' promise failed and man still has no escape from sin, from separation from God.. Thank God for the sounding of the Great Trumpet!" (With The Sounding of the Trumpet)

 

Universal Acknowledgement of Christ's Sovereignty Came in AD70

William Bell - "In chapter 2, reference again to judgment, v.10.  The reference does not appear as clear, but when paralleled with Rom.14:10 and Rev.5:13, that judgment and universal acknowledgment of Christ's sovereignty was at hand (Rev.1:1-3).  They were again exhorted in view of the day (Parousia) of Christ, (Phil.2:16)." (Philippians 4:5 - Spatiology or Eschatology)

 

The Gathering From the Four Winds Was During the Fall of Jerusalem

William Bell - " Jesus speaks of the gathering of the elect from the four winds during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.. In addition, it is not without significance that this gathering of the saints in Matt.24:31, is preceded by the great sound or voice (marginal rendering) of a trumpet. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob heard "this" trumpet. It therefore signaled the universal gathering of saints from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven, (Mk.13:27; 2 Thess.2:1; Heb.10:25), as well as the raising of the patriarchs and prophets from the dead, (Rom.4:16; Heb.11:39-40).. Equally certain is the fact that Matthew 24 places the sounding of that trumpet at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, before that first-century generation passed, (Matt.24:31,34). " (The Dead Are Raised)
 

That Which is Perfect Came in AD70 at the Second Coming

William Bell - "Therefore, seeing face to face which is equal to the coming of the perfect in the Corinthian text, is equal in time to "seeing His face" in the New Jerusalem at the second coming. It is the full open-faced, unmirorred revelation or unveiling of God's glory in Christ, a glory that was ready to be (about to be) revealed in the apostles' own generation.. Lastly, the end of the age, the revelation or day of Christ, the full-grown man, the coming of the perfect, seeing "face to face," the redemption of the purchased possession, receiving the inheritance, and the unity of the faith are all equivalents in time and meaning having occurred in 70 A.D. with the fall of Jerusalem" (When Did Miracles Cease)  

David Curtis
"That which is perfect refers to the maturity of the body at the rapture of the church, which happened at the second coming of Christ, bringing in the New Heavens and New Earth which closed the cannon. This all took place in AD 70, when the Lord returned, bringing in the New Heaven and Earth where we see Him face to face. So the coming again of our Lord for his people brought them to full maturity. " (The Permanence of Love)
 

Hades Was Destroyed in AD70

William Bell - "Hades has been destroyed. " (The Dead Are Raised)
 

The World Entered the Eternal Age in AD70

William Bell - "
Many writers express this viewpoint largely because they see the "age to come" as heaven."

Ed Stevens -
"That 40-year period between Pentecost and Holocaust was just a transition phase between “this age” and “the age about to come.” It is “the age about to come” that was to be the eternal one. We have several examples of 40-year transitional periods in the OT (wilderness wandering, David’s reign, etc.). According to Moses and the prophets the transition between the two ages was not supposed to be eternal, nor even a long protracted period. Gentry has missed the significance of the transition period, and confused the passages about the transition period with those about the eternal kingdom." (Stevens Responds to Gentry)

Don Preston - "This New World was consummated when God destroyed his old people, Isaiah 65:13ff, the Old Jerusalem; the Old Heavens and Earth of Judaism, Isaiah 51:15-16; bringing to a close the Old World (Age, Matthew 24:3) and bringing to glorious perfection, 1 Cor. 13:8, the New World. That time was when Jesus returned and destroyed the capital and hub of the Old World, Jerusalem, in A.D. 70." (More On No Death, No Sorrow, No Pain)
 

The Great Commission Was Fulfilled in AD70

Dan Delagrave "But what Futurists have failed to see is that the great commission, according to our New Testament, was accomplished in the first century just prior to the A.D.70 fall of Jerusalem!" (3/11 Newsletter)

Dan Harden “The Great Commission was a special time of inspired Apostolic activity that will never be repeated”  

Grady Brown "Did they fulfill the Great Commission? — for their world and for their day, yes they did! But we are living in a different world and a different day, and that world is waiting for some Good News. " (That All May Be Fulfilled, p. 453)

"Do universalists even believe in the great commission? Yes of course universalists do. As a preterist, I believe there is no need for it as proselytizing because God is all in all. However, sharing the good news is always a good thing." http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/837014-what-must-we-do-saved-5.html#ixzz0ZKrPtILi


Sanctification/Justification was for Pre-AD70 Dispensation

  • Sam Frost: "Justification is not a “process”, but sets into motion a “process” that climaxes at the (AD70) parousia."

  • "Therefore, I defined sanctification, for us living in the “age to come” now, as that which is entirely complete. In the traditional view, the “age to come” is life in eternity and comes at the end of the world. Surely, “in heaven” and in the “age to come” Christians are not still being sanctified! Here, the traditional view is again, correct. However, since we view the “age to come” as already here, it is perfectly logical to insist that we are not longer, as a Church, as the Wife of the Lamb, no the Bride, are “being sanctified.” ("Justification")

  • Sam Frost: "Righteousness, or “justification” was, in some sense, although already obtained, was “about to be” imputed to those who believed. Hope is mixed with the present reality, but the fact remains, Justification is, in some sense, connected to the  (AD70)  Final Judgment."

  • Sam Frost: "I conclude that whatever link or connection justification has to the (AD70) Final Judgment, we believe that it has, in its fullness of salvation, been completed. That Christians are not in a relationship, regardless of their believing that they are, with God that “hopes” for righteousness. They are, upon the apprehension of God, and upon that free gift and ability to trust in God, immediately and entirely justified in the fullest measure of that term possible. They are sanctified in the same measure, and are also glorified by their union with the Glorious Body of Christ. This is how God sees the Church today, post (AD70) judgment, and how He relates to the Church today."

 

Past Tense References in the New Testament Actually Mean AD70?

Mike Bennett - "What you are missing Todd is that when the bible uses past tense, it does not always mean that something has already happened. It means the certainty of an event to happen. This is expained in the Young's Literal Translation. This is nothing new. They clearly did not have the kingdom mentioned until the judgment. The kingdom was the reward. Redemption was drawing near.  This is not a different kingdom and redemption. They did not have it yet."

Jim Hopkins - "Now all of these statements speak as though the events of the cross have completed God's judgment on Satan. But the use of the present tense is consistent with Old Testament prophesy like Isa 9:6 "To us a child is born; to us a child is given." God "calls the things that are not, as though they were." (Rom 4:17). Jesus is also speaking in the same manner of Satan's overthrow. It will all tie in to the end of the age and the judgment of Israel."
(The Binding of Satan)

Rusureofit - "I have read that 1 Corinthians was written after 1 Thessalonians but still years before the temple was destroyed. If the dead were raised in AD 70 then how could Paul say "For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either." Isn't this past tense? Or did Paul change his mind from the time he wrote 1 Thessalonians until he wrote 1 Corinthians? Or is he talking about a different resurrection? This one has got me stumped......." planetpreterist.com/news-5559.html#41155

  • HyP response by Parker "The better translation might be "if the dead are not to be raised, then Christ has not been raised" or "if the dead don't raise, then Christ has not been raised." The NT theology is CLEAR that Jesus was the first to rise out of Hades and that the rest of the dead were to get out of Hades much later (at AD 70)."


Sam Frost (while HyP): “Preterism, the word I choose to call this doctrine and movement, is a risky venture. Two millennia of Church tradition on the Second Coming of Christ is now seen as an error. This was not a minor theological dispute, either. The Second Coming of Christ was and is a major tenet of Christianity. Most Christians that have come across preterist material immediately scoff at its views. Some have undertaken to wipe it out completely if possible as a damanable heresy. …Preterism is an interpretive system that is locked on the events of 66-70 A.D. It views this as the decisive eschatological event. The Second Coming, Resurrection of the Dead and Great Judgment are seen as having taken place in and around these years. This is a contradiction to Christian orthodoxy and its Creeds, Councils, and all the Reformed, Baptist, and Methodist Standards (and we wonder why preterists are called “heretics”!)”

  • Larry Siegle - "People who live now, beyond the end of the old “heavens and earth” of being “in Adam” are now judged, not according to the sin that entered into the world according to Adam (Rom 5:12ff), but according to the penalty of rejection of the shed blood of Jesus Christ, a “second death.”

  • Parker "The better translation might be "if the dead are not to be raised, then Christ has not been raised" or "if the dead don't raise, then Christ has not been raised." The New Testament is clear that Jesus was the first to rise out of Hades and that the rest of the dead were to get out of Hades much later (at AD 70)."

Joe Vincent 1/20/11 on Fb "I wouldn't expect a vast majority of scholarly works today for full preterist doctrine because most scholars are mixed up in trying to figure out how to apply futurist theology to their scholarly findings.

I say all of this because the majority of the scholarly leg work has already been done by partial preterists. Most full preterists agree with their positions, and are lock step in key with their findings. There is no need to re-create the wheel here. I wouldn't expect to find many full preterist scholarly works using your standard."

 


Hyper Preterism is a Moving Target... Pay Attention

WHAT CONSENSUS IN "HYPER PRETERISM" ?
 

  1. Is the Creation Account in Genesis history or Covenant Allegory?

    Starlight "Preterism is an approach to understanding scripture and it is revolutionary. It pits brother against brother and undermines established sacred religious dogmas because it sheds the light of truth upon past interpretive error. That is the real problem that you are looking at. We have been fighting this battle for the past 35 years in preterism and we have historically dealt with only the New Testament side of preterism. Now that Preterism is expanding and we have many that come wanting to continue the exploration in Genesis we are seeing a new battle erupt.   If Tim Martin had never come along and preterist had been allowed to settle into their NT world of Revelation and Matt 24 you would not begin to see the anguish that is going on. No one rocks the Genesis boat would make so many happy, but no some of us are going to push preterism to its conclusions and see for ourselves what it sheds upon Genesis. Genesis is the origins of scripture and it was only a matter of time that some would notice the imagery of Revelation that was deciphered by the preterist hermeneutic included Genesis icons. So there you have it." Planet Pret 7/10/2007 - 06:38


     

  2. Is there Sin in Heaven?

    David Green "Essentially, it is saying: the bible does not say we will be sinless in heaven. We can hope that it will be, but there are no guarantees since the bible is not explict on this subject. Secondly, since sam changes his mind every week we can't really answer his question. Third, sure, there are full preterists who believe what sam is suggesting, but this is not true preterism (not consistent). Our version is the true version. And the true version's answer to this problem: the bible does not say we will be sinless in heaven, nor does it say we won't." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/25162


     

  3. Jesus' Return in Glory - Was it an impersonal "Coming in Judgment" or a Personal Appearance?


    A. Jesus' Return was a "coming in judgment"

    Don Preston: "The end of the age was to occur with Christ's coming in judgment in the destruction of Jerusalem. He said that would happen before all that generation passed away, Matthew 16:27-28."


    C. Jesus' Return was a Personal Appearance

    D. Jesus' Return was a Spiritual Appearance

    E. Jesus' Return is in the coming of the Roman Armies

    Ed Burley
    "
    I do not, nor do any other Pantelists I know, believe that the Lake of Fire is "literal" fire. We believe that it is a metaphor of the destroying Roman Armies, as is found in other scriptures that speak of the destruction of the enemies of the Lord. Fire is a consistent metaphor for God's judgment." http://planetpreterist.com/content/todd-dennis-and-preteristic-idealism
     

  4. Jesus' Return in Glory - Was it in AD70, AD66, or BOTH?

    A. Jesus' Return in Glory Was in AD70

    William Bell -
     "What was true of Noah's day was also true regarding the coming of Christ in A.D.70 at the fall of Jerusalem." (A Boat Divided)

    "Jesus sounded pretty sure of himself regarding the time. He knew surely that he was coming quickly and that the time was at hand. Now that is just as it was in the days of Noah, general revelation initially, but precise information near the end! As can be observed, the New Testament gives many signs and time statements most of which occur during the final twelve years leading up to A.D.70, depicting the soon approaching parousia." (A Boat Divided)

    David Curtis "That which is perfect refers to the maturity of the body at the rapture of the church, which happened at the second coming of Christ, bringing in the New Heavens and New Earth which closed the cannon. This all took place in AD 70, when the Lord returned, bringing in the New Heaven and Earth where we see Him face to face. So the coming again of our Lord for his people brought them to full maturity. " (The Permanence of Love)

    "Jesus very clearly tells his disciples that before the temple would be destroyed and before His parousia and the end of the age, the gospel must be preached in all the world. And it was! The temple was destroyed! He arrived in full glory! The Old Covenant age ended! " (The Permanence of Love)

    Walt Hibbard - "The Second Coming of Christ, the Resurrection of the Dead from out of Hades, the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb – all would take place literally and coinciding with the Roman army's march, immediately after the tribulation of those days. For then “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. When we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (I Thess. 4:16-17). This was a literal “catching up” of all true believers on earth at that time." (The Expectation and Logic of a Literal Catching Up)

    Don Preston -
    "We are convinced the only construct of Mark 8:38-9:1 and parallels which satisfies the chronological and contextual demands is to understand Jesus predicting his return in full glory to judge all men... This happened in 70 A.D. when he destroyed Jerusalem"  (An Airtight Argument)

    Ed Stevens - "Since that generation passed, those events (including His return) must already have happened. Therefore, the passage about not knowing the day or hour no longer applies to us, because the return is a past event. We now know (historically) the day and hour of His return (70 A.D.). We no longer need signs to tell when it is getting close. It is a past event." (That Day and Hour?)

    B. Jesus' Return in Glory Was in AD66

    Ed Stevens - "The saints were being persecuted. Christ would come and give them relief (AD 66), and at the same time give tribulation to their persecutors. We are talking about two different phases of the tribulation, with Christ’s return in the middle (the first against the saints in AD 62 - 66, and the second against their persecutors in AD 66-70). 

    "If the angelic armies literally seen in the clouds at AD 66 were the fulfillment of ‘every eye shall see Him’ (Rev. 1:7) as Sproul has allowed as a possibility, then it was also the fulfillment of Acts 1:11!" (Foreword to the new edition of James Stuart Russell’s The Parousia Bradford, PA: International, p. xii)


     A common rebuttal to the futurist "no man knows the day or hour" argument given by full preterists is that, after the fact, you could know.
    so which is it, AD66 or AD70 !?  Can't be both.  Or is there a THIRD FORM OF COMING (66 through 70, as some claim)  ?   If 'every eye' would see Him, then how could it be unclear in retrospect?

    Joseph Vincent - "Again, my entire argument is that the millennial period took place during the time beginning with the ministry of Jesus in or around AD27-30 and concluded at some point prior to the dissolution of the Temple and the Old Covenant Jewish system in or around AD67-70 at the Parousia, or coming of Jesus."
    (The Millennium)

     

  5. When Did the Old Covenant Cease in Influence ? 

    A. The Old Covenant / Mosaic Law Passed in AD30


    B. The Old Covenant / Mosaic Law Passed in AD70


    William Bell The sting of [the death] is [the] sin, and the strength of [the] sin is the law." What is the strength of sin? It is "THE LAW." What Law? The Law of Moses. "Moreover the law entered that the offense might about..." (Rom. 5.20). Paul is talking about "the sin" committed by Adam, which brought about "the death" of Adam, which was not physical death. Adam did not die physically the day he ate; however, just as his eyes were opened the day he ate, he died. Adam was not physically blind before he ate of the tree. The statement concerning his "eyes being opened" refers to his awakened conscious resulting from sin (Gen. 3:7) In like manner, his death was not a physical death, but spiritual death or condemnation (Rom. 5:18) which resulted in his being expelled from the Garden and hence cut off from the tree of life. That is "the death" caused by "the sin" of rebellion against God-man seeking to be his own god, guided by his own will and strength. To be cut off, separated from God and the tree of life is "the death." This is why the victory over sin is stated in the present tense in 1 Cor. 15:57. "But thanks be to God, who gives, [literally, is giving] us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. God was at that time in the process of fulfilling the law and setting it aside. The law would no longer have the power to condemn because of the gospel. The time of consummation was near- at hand. Soon, the Lord would come and fulfill all things spoken by the prophets. That is when the law would pass, when sin and Hades (death) would be destroyed. It all came to pass in AD70, when Jesus said, these are the days of vengeance in which all things which are written may be fulfilled (Lk. 21:22,32)." (Review of William Jones "An Examination of the A.D. 70 teaching, p. 73-74)

    Jim Hopkins "Not seen in this paper is the meaning of all of this for our generation, but out of this, one should see that the Mosaic Law, the period of types and shadows, extends through the period of the judgment on Israel and did not pass away at the cross. Out of this typical arrangement we should see that the saints now partake of the spiritual arrangement, the Kingdom of God." (The Day Drawing Near)

    Don Preston -
    "I find it impossible to escape the conclusion that either the Great Trumpet of the Lord sounded in that first century generation or Jesus' promise failed and man still has no escape from sin, from separation from God. The Good News is, the Trumpet sounded and the final barriers between God and man were removed as God took away the last vestiges of "the law" which held the "power of sin." Man can now be fully justified and live in full assurance that "he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (John 5:24). Thank God for the sounding of the Great Trumpet!" (With The Sounding of the Trumpet)

    Don Preston - "Paul's statement that the bondwoman and her son, representative of the Old Covenant, was yet to be cast out — for persecuting Christians — is prima fascia proof that the Old Testament did not pass at the cross as is traditionally maintained by many. Paul emphatically says the Old Covenant people would be cast out for persecuting Christians, the children of promise (Galatians 4:28-30).  This persecution patently did not occur prior to the cross. Thus, Israel could not have been cut off at the cross." (The Passing of the Elements)

    "This New World was consummated when God destroyed his old people, Isaiah 65:13ff, the Old Jerusalem; the Old Heavens and Earth of Judaism, Isaiah 51:15-16; bringing to a close the Old World (Age, Matthew 24:3) and bringing to glorious perfection, 1 Cor. 13:8, the New World. That time was when Jesus returned and destroyed the capital and hub of the Old World, Jerusalem, in A.D. 70." (More On No Death, No Sorrow, No Pain)

    Michael Sartori - "I would contend that the O/C passed away in AD70 and the N/C commenced in AD70, at the destruction of Jerusalem. " (Magi Forum -http://jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html)


    Kurt Simmons - The Attack on Full Preterism: Which Death Was Defeated in AD70? - "Covenant Eschatology: Inherently Universalistic" The evidence is in: full Preterism is not the culprit linking Preterism to Universalism. The real culprits are false notions regarding the source and nature of mankind’s condemnation and his corporate justification as articulated by some in the Preterist community. Reformed Preterists, like Frost, interpret the “death” cast into the lake of fire in Rev. 20:14 as imputed Adamic guilt. King, on the other hand, equates it with annulment of the Mosaic law. Because these are universal in terms of their asserted condemnation, their destruction works universal justification, apart from faith and obedience. As they unconditionally condemned, so their annulment unconditionally justifies. It is as if the whole race were arraigned before the court of heaven upon an indictment reciting these two laws. The annulment of those laws ipso facto destroys the indictment, as there is no longer any law to base an accusation upon. Hence, all men stand acquitted. In the words of Sam Frost: “There is no law taking into account our sins.”

    C. The Old Covenant / Mosaic Law Still Around for the Lost

     

  6. When Did the New Covenant "Age to Come" Start ?   AD30, AD70, or Both ?

    A. The Start of the New Covenant Age ("The Age to Come") was in AD70

    William Bell -
    "We all know when it fell, in A.D.70! Entrance into the Most Holy is a blessing of the "age to come." Entrance was opened up at the fall of the temple. Therefore, the blessings of the "age to come" were opened up or received at the fall of the temple, specifically ETERNAL LIFE!" (This Present Evil Age)

    "How confusing it would have been for Jesus to direct the apostles to the end of the Christian age which is endless and had not yet begun when the very age in which they were living had not reached its consummation!." (When Did Miracles Cease)

    "Namely, that when Jesus answered their objection to the resurrection on the grounds that it did not consist in the fleshly dimension of the Jewish aeon (this age) but in the eternal new covenant aeon (age to come) wherein sonship in Christ is equated with resurrection." (The Dead Are Raised)

    Ward Fenley
    - "Also, if we have proven that they were in the last days and the end of the age, and that those last days have come and gone and the Jewish age has come and gone, then in what age are we now? Jesus spoke of two ages:
    Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the age to come.     Interestingly, the Greek phrase used is aeoni houtay en toe mellonti, literally translated "age about to come." Jesus spoke of the present Jewish age and the ensuing New Covenant age."(The Last Days)

    Michael Hill
    - "Christ's eschaton.. began at the cross and ended in his parousia (presence/coming) at Jerusalem at the end of the 7-year war with Rome.. Thus, true to Jesus' words, that old world ended, the dead were judged, the saved were resurrected, and a whole new realm of grace began" (The Cure for Millennial Madness, p. 3).

    Jim Hopkins - "No new age was heralded in at the cross or Pentecost. Their present age was evil (Gal 1:4) and the god of the age was Satan (2 Cor 4:4). Paul said that they stood at the ends of the ages (I Cor 10:11). In Gal 4 Hagar, represented both the Old Covenant and the Jerusalem that "now is" (the Old was still present), and Sarah represented both the New Covenant and the New Jerusalem that was "above" (it was still to come)." (The Use of the Old Testament)


    New Earth Christian Studies -
    "The Christians of the time were in a unique position: They were living not just between covenants, but in the end times of the Old Covenant which coincided with the beginning of the New." (God's Promises Fulfilled)

    Don Preston - "This New World was consummated when God destroyed his old people, Isaiah 65:13ff, the Old Jerusalem; the Old Heavens and Earth of Judaism, Isaiah 51:15-16; bringing to a close the Old World (Age, Matthew 24:3) and bringing to glorious perfection, 1 Cor. 13:8, the New World. That time was when Jesus returned and destroyed the capital and hub of the Old World, Jerusalem, in A.D. 70." (More On No Death, No Sorrow, No Pain)

    "I believe the only scenario that satisfies the teaching of the Old and New Covenants concerning the Dawning of the New Day is when Christ returned in judgment, destroying the Old World of Darkness and Death, II Corinthians 3. This patently was not on Pentecost; the New Testament writers, writing after Pentecost saw the Day as still future, but imminent, I Peter 4:5,7; James 5:7-9. The New Day fully came in 70 AD when Jesus returned in judgment of the Old World of Darkness and brought the New Day of Salvation. The Day has come." (The Day Has Come)

    Michael Sartori - "I would contend that the O/C passed away in AD70 and the N/C commenced in AD70, at the destruction of Jerusalem. " (Magi Forum -http://jaygary.com/starof2000/discus/messages/1/1.html)

    Larry Siegle - "The complete removal of the Old Covenant system and the establishment of the New Covenant system opened the door for those willing and obedient to enter into salvation “in Christ” and to once again allow the covenantal blessings of heaven to be poured out upon them."  preterist.wordpress.com/2008/11/08/when-paradise-is-restored-at-last/

    Ed Stevens - "That 40-year period between Pentecost and Holocaust was just a transition phase between “this age” and “the age about to come.” It is “the age about to come” that was to be the eternal one. We have several examples of 40-year transitional periods in the OT (wilderness wandering, David’s reign, etc.). According to Moses and the prophets the transition between the two ages was not supposed to be eternal, nor even a long protracted period." (Stevens Responds to Gentry)

    "At AD70, Jesus returned and ended the last days of the Jewish nation.  It was God's Great and Glorious Day for the vindication of His people, and an awesome day of judgment and destruction for those who had rejected and crucified Jesus.. The last days of the Jewish nation ended then.  A new age had begun." (What Happened in AD70?, p. 29)



    B. The New Covenant Age ("The Age to Come") was initiated in AD30, but not completed Until AD70

    William Bell - "
    The "present time" denotes a "then present" period of transition from the Old to the New Covenant. This did not occur instantaneously at Pentecost (A.D.33) but gradually within the framework of the Cross - A.D.70 time frame" (Illusion of Conclusion)

    New Earth Christian Studies -
    "If they were looking forward to something, waiting eagerly for it, then they did not yet possess it in its fullness. And yet, there was always a sense in which they already owned it. They had the down payment. It was not that the New Covenant had not yet begun: It had, but it was not in full effect, until the Old Covenant was utterly destroyed." (God's Promises Fulfilled) 

    Don Preston "We thus have the passing of one world and the anticipation of another. The Old World is the Old Covenant World of Israel that anticipated and predicted the coming of the Messiah — these predictions were part of the elements, the first principles of Christ. The New World, the World to come, was initiated by the passion of Jesus and his work of atonement. The perfection of that atoning work would be his parousia (Hebrews 9:28)." (The Passing of the Elements)

    "If they were looking forward to something, waiting eagerly for it, then they did not yet possess it in its fullness. And yet, there was always a sense in which they already owned it. They had the down payment. It was not that the New Covenant had not yet begun: It had, but it was not in full effect, until the Old Covenant was utterly destroyed.  The Christians of the time were in a unique position: They were living not just between covenants, but in the end times of the Old Covenant which coincided with the beginning of the New." (God's Promises Fulfilled)  -
    So which is it, AD30 or AD70 !?  Can't be both.  Or is there a THIRD AGE ("This Age to Come")? 


    D. The END of the New Covenant Age ("The Age to Come") was in AD70

    "I don't think the old covenant ceased at the cross of Christ. It was done at the destruction of Jerusalem. After the cross, its began to fade away as we've seen in the book of Hebrews. The new covenant began on the Day of Pentecost which the saints were filled with the holy spirit and Christ was their King. Now, this may be an interesting part, the judgment began at 66 AD when the saints were "raised" and "received" the thrones of kingdom with the parousia of Christ at that time, not 70 AD yet. See Rev. 11:15-19; Matt. 19:28; and Luke 22:30. The old covenant and the new covenant were overlaping during 30-70 AD. It seems that BOTH WERE ENDED at 70 AD. When all things (the judgment, the enemies, the resurrection, the kingdom, the death, the covenants, and the Law) that were subjected to him, he delivered up to his God (Yahweh) the Father which He may be all in all." (http://newjerusalemministriesboards.com/showthread.php?p=19198#post19198)

     

  7. When Was the Church Established ?  AD30, AD70, or Both ?

    A. Preston: The Church Was Not Established at Pentecost

    Don Preston
    "A key point of controversy surrounding the Preterist view of eschatology is the contention that the church/kingdom was not fully established on Pentecost but was in a state of incompletion until the Old World was taken out of the way in A.D.70. Every anti-Preterist which this writer has read or heard has made a major issue over this point. It would seem that this issue is one which our opponents believe is dangerous, and evidently they believe it easy to refute. As we shall seek to demonstrate, however, it is not the Preterist that has a problem with this issue, it is the one who holds to the traditional concept of eschatology; and especially in regard to the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit. (A Full Grown Baby?)

    B. Preston: The Church Was Established at Pentecost

    Don Preston "We are not here arguing that the kingdom was not established on Pentecost. We do aver it was established in infancy." (An Airtight Argument)

    C. Others

    Jim Hopkins - "No new age was heralded in at the cross or Pentecost. Their present age was evil (Gal 1:4) and the god of the age was Satan (2 Cor 4:4). Paul said that they stood at the ends of the ages (I Cor 10:11). In Gal 4 Hagar, represented both the Old Covenant and the Jerusalem that "now is" (the Old was still present), and Sarah represented both the New Covenant and the New Jerusalem that was "above" (it was still to come)." (The Use of the Old Testament)

     

  8. When Was the Resurrection?  Was it in AD30, Was it in AD70, or Both?

    A. AD30: The Resurrection Began in AD30 and Ended in AD70

    William Bell -
    "It is transparent that Paul has pointed the direction of the Philippians upward, eagerly looking for the Savior who would complete the resurrection already in progress, v.11. ." (Phil. 4:5 Spatiology or Eschatology?)

    B. AD70: The Resurrection Was Solely in AD70

    Max R. King - "This captivity was symbolic of the captive state of the New Testament saints during the last days of fleshly Israel. They were oppressed and persecuted until the very end of that second Babylon (I Thess. 2:14-16). The fall of Babylon (Israel) and the resurrection of the saints to their homeland, the new heaven and earth, are the basic theme of God's final revelation to man. As with national Israel in ancient Babylon, the release or deliverance of the saints from Israel (Babylon) was the opening of the graves and the bringing forth of all into judgment," (The Spirit of Prophecy, p. 219).

    C. AD30 and 70: The Resurrection Was in Progress, But Wasn't Attained Until AD70

    William Bell - "
    In chapter 3, Paul speaks of attaining to the resurrection of the dead, v.11, which equates with being made perfect (telios), and obtaining the prize of the high calling, (Phil.3:12,14; Eph.4:13).  Finally, after another reference to the destruction of Jewish adversaries, whose hope was in their fleshly status and circumcision, (3:1-6); whose righteousness was derived from the works of the law, (v.9); and whose mind was on the earthly things or commonwealth of Jerusalem, its temple and sacrifices, etc., (v.19), Paul looks up with his affections set on the heavenly things above (Col.3:1,2), and declares, "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself" (Phil.3:20,21).  It is transparent that Paul has pointed the direction of the Philippians upward, eagerly looking for the Savior who would complete the resurrection already in progress, v.11. ." (Phil. 4:5 Spatiology or Eschatology?)

     

  9. When is the Bodily Resurrection?  AD70 or in the future, after Death?  Or Two Different Resurrections of the Just?

    A. The Resurrection is in the Future, After Physical Death (Wouldn't This by HYPO-Preterism?)

    Jessie Mills
    - "Since Christ has already returned, believers now receive their new bodies immediately at death." (Revelation Survey, p. 168)

    B. The Resurrection was in AD70

    Jessie Mills
    - "The dead in Hades (sheol) were indeed disembodied  while waiting for Christ's return.  At Christ's return, the dead in the unseen realm of Hades were raised out of Hades and given their new immortal bodies that had been reserved for them." (Revelation Survey, p. 168)

     

  10. Was the Resurrection Personal or Corporate?
     

    A. The Body that was Resurrection was Corporate

    Dr. Kelly Nelson Birks  "It is hermeneutical error to take an OT quote as a means by which one attempts to bring light to a fresh NT truth. This is made overtly clear when some of us take a passage like Isa. 25:19 or Hosea 6:1-3 which said contexts are using the analogy of resurrection as a means to communicate the nation of Israel's restoration back to the land of promise from Babylonian, Assyrian, and Persian bondage.

    I have never been able to understand how any Pret could read these OT texts and ignore the context of those passages that teach the above. But the reverse methodology that I have described is being used I believe to support a preterist prejudice.

    The prejudiced was given birth by Max King. No one before Max had ever written or talked about this corporate body view of the resurrection.
    This "new information" was begun and had it's genesis in the mind of a single, uninspired human being. It is neither legitimate nor glorifying to God to take as one's teacher on so important a subject as this without critical analysis. We have not done this.

    The title of my blog "A Star Trek Blog-ology" is a means to illicit an emotional attraction to what
    I have concluded to be nothing less than a Sci Fi fantasy of the resurrection. The threat that the Borg made to all those that they encountered was "Resistance is futile. We will absorb your individual personalities into our collective"."

    "The corporate body view of the resurrection is wrong." (groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/18233)


    Don Preston "The coming of the City, the New Heavens and Earth, and the Tabernacle, the Wedding, are all clearly corporate ideas, and do not speak of individualistic concepts. They are depicted as occurring at a singular, punctiliar point in time, not as every human who accepts Christ dies. There is, LAMENTABLY, an attempt on the part of some to make virtually all Biblical eschatological predictions a referent to personal salvation, Christ’s coming at the point of death, etc.. However, the Day of the Lord is not an individualistic concept, but an objective, corporate reality. YHVH came in judgment of nations, in concrete historical events (cf. Isaiah 19; 34, Ezekiel 29f, etc.). Christ’s coming on the clouds, with the angels, in judgment of Israel for shedding innocent blood (Matthew 23-24), can hardly be applied individualistically. To seek to mitigate this indisputable fact by conceding that it was a providential coming, is, in reality, to abandon the individualistic emphasis. Christ’s coming, so far as I can determine, is never applied to an individual’s death. It is a lamentable theological fabrication to claim otherwise."  eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=622&Itemid=61
     


     

  11. When the Gospel Start / Cease?

    A. Paul's Gospel Didn't Apply to the Pre-AD70 World

    William Bell
    - "If Demas forsook Paul for the present age (alleged Christian age) then in what age did that leave Paul? Not the Jewish age if it passed away at the cross. Not the "age to come," since it is argued to be yet future.  Can we attribute the present age to which Demas apostatized as the age which Christ came to establish? Does not this passage show clearly that the gospel which Paul held firmly till his death (2 Timothy 4:6-8) did not belong to the "present age" of scripture? What a bind we all are in today if loving the Christian age is apostasy." (This Present Evil Age)

    B. Paul's Writings Applied ONLY to the Pre-AD70 World

    numerous

     

  12. When Was The Judgment Of "All Men" ?

    A. The Judgment of "All Men" was in AD70

    William Bell - "Having died in faith, they were yet (about A.D. 64) awaiting the promise of resurrection into the eternal kingdom, (Heb.11:39-40). Although the time was then future, it was not in the far distant future for the city for which they looked was about to come, (Heb.13:14), and was said to be at hand, (Rev.1:1,3; 21:2)." (The Dead Are Raised) 

    "Similarly, the resurrection of saints from hades and the change of the "living" as far as we know, was not perceivable to the physical eye. The limits of physical observation do not deny, disprove, or otherwise negate the clear teachings of scripture that the resurrection occurred in 70 A.D., in connection with the fall of Jerusalem " (Challenging Concepts of the Resurrection)

    "The time of this judgment equals the time that the patriarchs as well as the saints from the east, west, north and south sit down or inherit the kingdom and corresponds with their resurrection.   
    Jesus speaks of the gathering of the elect from the four winds during the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D." (Illusion of Conclusion)

    David Curtis -" The destruction of Jerusalem evidenced Jesus' coming in the clouds for that historical group of people. But are we to see it only as a coming in judgement on Israel? The full preterist or consistent preterist sees this judgement coming on Israel as the second advent of Christ. Jesus said that he would come in the lifetime of his disciples not just to judge Israel but: he said he would come in the glory of His father, with His angels, to reward every man.    At Christ's coming he was to judge the wicked and reward the righteous, and it was to happen quickly. In the parable of the tares in Matthew 13 we see that the judgement of the wicked and the reward of the righteous happen at the same time." (The Book of Revelation)

    Stephen Douglas - "
    At the time of the emptying of Sheol as a result of the judgment in AD 70, the living and the those who had died before that time were judged based on their faithfulness to God." (undeception.wordpress.com/2007/11/01/common-objections-to-full-preterism-below-the-surface/#comments)

    Max R. King - "This captivity was symbolic of the captive state of the New Testament saints during the last days of fleshly Israel. They were oppressed and persecuted until the very end of that second Babylon (I Thess. 2:14-16). The fall of Babylon (Israel) and the resurrection of the saints to their homeland, the new heaven and earth, are the basic theme of God's final revelation to man. As with national Israel in ancient Babylon, the release or deliverance of the saints from Israel (Babylon) was the opening of the graves and the bringing forth of all into judgment," (The Spirit of Prophecy, p. 219).


    Don Preston -
    "We are convinced the only construct of Mark 8:38-9:1 and parallels which satisfies the chronological and contextual demands is to understand Jesus predicting his return in full glory to judge all men... This happened in 70 A.D. when he destroyed Jerusalem"  (An Airtight Argument)

    Don Preston - "Jesus was to come, with his angels, in the judgment of all men, in the kingdom, in the first century generation (Matthew 16:27-28). But the coming of Christ, with his angels, in judgment of all men, and in the kingdom, was to be the Great White Throne Judgment of Matthew 25:31f (and Revelation 20). Therefore, the Great White Throne Judgment of Matthew 25:31f (and Revelation 20), was to be in the first century generation."
    eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=482&Itemid=90

    Don Preston - "It also is important to see that in Luke 21:25-26 Jesus described the coming judgment on Israel in "cosmic" proportions; it would include the whole world, cf. Rev. 3:10. Further, in Matthew 24:29f the Lord said that at the fall of Jerusalem "the sun will be darkened, the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heaven shall be shaken." Now how much more "universal" of a judgment is needed than that?"



    B. The Judgment of "All Men" was a Process Completed in AD70

    William Bell - "It is transparent that Paul has pointed the direction of the Philippians upward, eagerly looking for the Savior who would complete the resurrection already in progress, v.11.  Clearly, the expectation of the Parousia is in full focus." (Philippians 4:5 - Spatiology or Eschatology)

     

  13. Who Was Judged ("All Men") in AD70 ?

    A.
    The Living and the Dead Before AD70 Were Judged

    William Bell
    - "In addition, it is not without significance that this gathering of the saints in Matt.24:31, is preceded by the great sound or voice (marginal rendering) of a trumpet. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob heard "this" trumpet. It therefore signaled the universal gathering of saints from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven, (Mk.13:27; 2 Thess.2:1; Heb.10:25), as well as the raising of the patriarchs and prophets from the dead, (Rom.4:16; Heb.11:39-40). This can be none other than the trump of God of 1 Thess.4:16, and the last trump of 1 Cor.15:52. If not, then do the scriptures teach two separate gatherings preceded by two universal trumpets? Why make them all the more confusing (a fact evidenced by the attempt to divide Matthew 24), by placing them both at a coming of Christ, a consummation of an age, a gathering together of the elect in the clouds, and an inheriting of the kingdom, (Matt.8:11-12, 24:3, 30-31, 34; 1 Cor.15:23-24, 50-52; 1 Thess.4:14-17)? It should be readily apparent that the trumpet is one and the same. Equally certain is the fact that Matthew 24 places the sounding of that trumpet at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, before that first-century generation passed, (Matt.24:31,34). " (The Dead Are Raised)

    Stephen Douglas - "At the time of the emptying of Sheol as a result of the judgment in AD 70, the living and the those who had died before that time were judged based on their faithfulness to God." (undeception.wordpress.com/2007/11/01/common-objections-to-full-preterism-below-the-surface/#comments)

    B. "Fleshly Israel" Was Judged in AD70

    William Bell
    - "The parable of the tares likewise expressed the difficulty of determining the tares (fleshly Israel) from the wheat (spiritual Israel or sons of God), during the pre-end-of-the-age transition which was consummated in A.D.70, (Mt.13:29,30; 37-40)."  (Illusion of Conclusion)

     

  14. When Did Supernatural Power of Evil Cease ?  Was it in AD30, Was it in AD70, or Both?

    A. Supernatural Powers of Evil Ceased in AD70

    William Bell - "It also explains the cessation of demon possession and the supernatural powers of evil spirits which were independent of apostles' hands or disciples' vital signs. The cessation of prophecy and demon possession was linked to the fulfillment of old testament prophecy." (When Did Miracles Cease)

    David Curtis - "Their father was the devil, the god of the Jewish age. Satan held them in bondage through the law. They were the physical seed of Abraham but not the true seed of Abraham." (Israel of God)

    David Embury (2008) - "Where has your consistent preterism gone? God has already resolved the "death" issue, thus there is no continuance of death post mortem – that's the good news of the Gospel – the death has been dealt its final blow, and as a consequence God has no more enemies. In the Parousia DEATH being the LAST enemy was destroyed, and that pretty much covers ALL enemies – there can be NO enemies beyond this LAST one. Therefore, IF the last enemy to be destroyed was death, then regardless of what you, I or anyone else thinks – God has no more enemies from God's perspective. Having made peace through the blood of Christ's Cross, God HAS reconciled all things in heaven and on earth to Himself. So even if in the ignorance or arrogance of some men's feeble minds they consider themselves as God's enemies, from HIS perspective they are not; even Paul affirms this" (cite)

    Jessie Mills - "Satan has already been given his kingdom in the lake of fire, and he no longer walks up and down, to and fro, seeking whom he may devour.  His powers are curtailed.. Christ is now ruler of the this world." (Revelation Survey, p. 256) 

    "Nero declared war on Israel Feb 10 AD67. After the judgment of Rev. 20:4 Satan was loosed for a short period and when he accomplished God's will he was cast into the lake of fire.  So at the most 4 months would fulfil those events in the this time frame.  See Luke 21:20-22." (Revelation Survey, p. 163) 

    Don Preston
    - "But Jesus comes in judgment on that apostate city and destroys her. In chapter 20 judgment is set, Satan is cast into the lake of fire; and Jesus takes his glorious bride unto himself! This all happened in 70 AD with the full destruction of the Theocracy of Israel, the persecuting city of Jerusalem, the Old Heavens and Earth. The New Creation is complete--what Satan had succeeded in getting man to forfeit, communion with God and eternal life, is restored. Satan lost — God finished His work." (The Binding of Satan)

    B. Supernatural Powers of Evil Ceased in AD30

    Dan Harden -“Yes the effect of human sin is sufficient to account for all of the horrible expressions of wickedness that we see in our world today. We find little excuse to blame Satan for the evil about us. Christ has tied up the strong one and plundered his house”

    C. Supernatural Powers of Evil Still Exist

    Jim Hopkins: "People are unable to accept that the Kingdom of God is present. They think in the physical realm where Satan still exists. But in the spiritual realm Satan has been removed from between man and his maker." 

     

  15. The Seventieth Week of Daniel - AD30s or AD70s ?

    A. The Seventieth Week was in the AD30s.
     
    Jessie Mills
    - "Therefore we see the balance of the last 'week' beginning when the Holy Spirit is poured out upon the twelve (Pentecost), and the teaching of Christ goes forth." (Daniel's Fulfilled Prophecy, p. 149)

    B. The Seventieth Week was in AD70

    Jim Hopkins - "Daniel also saw the abomination of desolation concluding the 70 weeks, which Jesus says takes place at Jerusalem's destruction. Sort of locks that in for us, doesn't it?"

     

  16. Who Was Raptured in AD70 -  All NT Saints, Some NT Saints or Nobody ?


    A. All New Testament Saints Raptured in AD70
     

    Walt Hibbard - "The Second Coming of Christ, the Resurrection of the Dead from out of Hades, the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb – all would take place literally and coinciding with the Roman armies march, immediately after the tribulation of those days. For then “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. When we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (I Thess. 4:16-17). This was a literal “catching up” of all true believers on earth at that time." (cite)

    Arthur Melanson - "If Jesus came back in 70 A.D. then what about the Rapture? Well, it took place on schedule just as God, through Paul, said it would.     Saints who were alive at the Lord's return were 'caught up' to meet Jesus in the air. They became, without passing through physical death, residents of the consummated kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. God's restoration plan for man was complete, and physically alive believers were included." (The Rapture)

    Ed Stevens: "A rapture easily explains why no Christian after AD 70 mentioned the occurrence of the parousia (they weren't around to document it).  So when a non-rapture preterist asserts that the rapture preterist has a "documentation problem," it leaves three fingers pointing back at him.  The non-rapture preterist has three other events to find documentation for (parousia, resurrection and judgment)." (Silence Demands a Rapture)

     

  17. When Do Christians Enter Heaven - At Spiritual Birth or Physical Death ?


    B.  Christians Enter Heaven at Death

    Dan Harden: "..(O)ur spiritual condition is drastically different from those of the pre-Parousial saints, based solely on the fact that our High Priest returned and brought back with Him our completed atonement.  Christ has made us whiter than snow, blameless before the Lord, despite our shortcomings.  What was a promise / deposit for the pre-Parousial saints is a reality for us today -- even while living on Earth.  Our going to Heaven when we die is BECAUSE of these fulfilled promises.  We don't look forward to them being fulfilled in fullness when we die, or else we would never be qualified to make it on our own, for we are unable to do so on our own.  Indeed, if we didn't have glory in fullness already, we couldn't go to Heaven at all, for God cannot abide anything less than perfection.  But our entrance into Heaven is assured because we already have Eternal Life in fullness NOW!" (Response to Hibbard)

    Walt Hibbard: "
    At this point I think it is only fair, open and honest to urge the “heaven now” preterists to return to sanity in their eschatological studies. If they choose not to do so, they are laying themselves wide open for ridicule and laughter from the entire futurist community and many preterists as well – and even worse will do insurmountable damage to the preterist cause, and to the credibility and honor of the Lord Jesus Christ, the very One whom preterists strive to honor in virtue of their adopting the preterist viewpoint! " (Reply to Sam Frost's Analysis)

     

  18. Are Prophecies being Fulfilled in the New Covenant Age?

    A.  All Bible Prophecy Fulfilled in AD70 Means ALL


    B.  Not so.. there is room in consistent preterism for a view of the future

    • Ed Stevens "If we assume that the preterist position is correct, then what about the prophetic scriptures that have all been fulfilled. "Are they then profitable any more for today?" ... Is this not taking away from Holy Scripture?' The value of Scripture is enhanced even more by its fulfillment. Now we are not just waiting for the consummation and given only a 'pledge' or 'seal' to get us by until the perfect arrives. We have the full and complete state of the kingdom. We live in His presence and eat at His table and commune with Him in His kingdom. The prophetic scriptures describe all these spiritual blessings that are ours now in the kingdom. Those passages are not just hopes and anxious longings. They are reality. They are realized eschatology."
       

    • Samuel Frost - Towards a Fuller Preterism (10/31/2010) "I was going to entitle this series, “Preterism Has No Future”, but decided against it. I think certain forms of what has come to be known as Full Preterism (FP) has no future in terms of surviving outside the internet community. The academic community has all but rejected it"

      "This.. is the real deal of what FP teaches: the earth will never, ever, never, ever never never know peace.......WAR IS THE NORM on earth for INFINITY. Folks....this is now unmasked..... "
       

      • Response to Green on Towards a Fuller Preterism (11/3/10) - "Green here asserts that “in accordance with BIBLE PROPHECY” we are still “growing”.  So, let’s think logically here.  If BIBLE PROPHECY is still BEING fulfilled (still growing as the PROPHETS said) beyond A.D. 70, then…..well, you can do the math.

        But, in case you missed that, Green says it again: the Bible “describes” the age to come.  Now, this was the whole point of my paper, was it not.  But, if this is true, then the Bible speaks “beyond” A.D. 70.  And, if it so speaks (prophesies), then what exactly is the problem, Dave?  You have made my point: Bible Prophecy was not “all” fulfilled in A.D. 70!  Q.E.D.  If it “describes” (read, prophesies), then, clearly, all prophecy is not yet fulfilled.  This underscores my point: ongoing FULFILLMENT.  Ask a Covenant Creationist if prophecy is, in any way, shape, or form, “being fulfilled” today.  It is THIS TYPE of FP that I am attacking.  It’s not a straw man." 

        • Green: "Sam believes that the Second Coming and Resurrection of the Dead will be consummated in our future.  Does he not?  If so, then it follows that he is not a full preterist. " // However, Green uses a Similar Method in regards to salvation:  Dave Green: "That salvation was predicted, foreshadowed, and proclaimed in the old testament. It was a salvation that would be fulfilled and realized at the Cross of Christ, and fully consummated at His Presence in the end of the old-covenant age in A.D. 70." (New Covenant Salvation)


    Is the Transitional Work of "Christ in You" Denied by the "AD70 Salvation
    " Myth?

    Sam Frost
    (From Heterodox Confessions of Hyperpreterists, unless noted)

    • "Reformed soteriology must change in order to meet the demand of the Bible truth of Jesus' return. anyone trying to cram a futurist soteriology into a full preterist framework is doomed from the start with such a project.”

    • "We have been saying this for almost 10 years. It's not my fault some are just realizing this like it is some startling revelation! You cannot call yourself "reformed" and somehow, in some strange twisting of Scripture, have progressive sanctification AFTER the Second Coming (meaning 70 A.D.)! Doesn't work. Never will. 20 years of reading systematic theology ... believe me, I've tried. Doesn't work.

    • (2009) “Traditional Calvinism cannot be compatible with Preterism precisely because it is a system built upon an end of history. However, cannot one take the principles of what Augustine and Calvin taught (along with Luther) and rework them so that we can drop what needs to be dropped (like progressive sanctification), and keep what can be kept?"

    • (2009) "My point in all of this was that since Preterism maintains that said “Final Judgment” has taken place, such aspect of justification no longer exists for us believers living in the Age which Has Come." (Final Response to Birks http://thereignofchrist.com/final-response-to-kelly-birks/

    • Birks: Mr. Frost holds to the teaching that since the AD 70 Parousia, sanctification as an ongoing process for the believer has ceased and that all believers are since AD 70, fully conformed to the image of Christ and are without any further need of sanctification. Based on the evidence presented to this court, you were found guilty of this charge."  //  Sam: "So, while found “guilty” as charged (alright, I am guilty here), this is no new thing to me, since I wrote my book at least a year before I ever met Birks." http://thereignofchrist.com/final-response-to-kelly-birks/


     

  19. When did Salvation Come?  At the Cross?

  • Arthur Melanson "Salvation didn’t come at the cross. It didn’t come at Pentecost. It didn’t come at the ascension. According to the pattern of the Old Testament, forgiveness of sins came when the high priest came out from the Presence behind the veil. "

    Hope is something we wait for that we do not yet have. Salvation was still a hope in that day." (The Appearing of the High Priest)



Vastly Overreaching Conclusions Built Upon Unproven Propositions

  • Dave Green: Man was condemned through the cross and the Parousia (Coming of Christ), but it was through the cross and the Parousia that God justified His elect and demonstrated His tender mercy toward His children. He commended His love toward His church at the cross, and it was permanently established and fulfilled at His glorious Presence. [in AD70] When all were dead in sin and there was no one to save, God alone worked mightily and saved his chosen ones out from among the dead. [in AD70] He preserved them till the end [AD70] and was not willing that any of them should perish. He graciously forgave them of all their sin and freely gave to them eternal life in His Kingdom, in the Covenant of His blood." [in AD70] (New Covenant Salvation)
     

  • Rich "I too have been thinking about the fact that since "the dead" in 1 Cor. 15 is in reference to Israel, how does that relate to the fact that Paul then brings in Adam. Seems the connection is clear. Adam was the beginning for the people of Israel. The Gentiles are outside this group."
     

  • David Embury (2008) "Where has your consistent preterism gone? God has already resolved the "death" issue, thus there is no continuance of death post mortem –that's the good news of the Gospel – the death has been dealt its final blow, and as a consequence God has no more enemies. In the Parousia DEATH being the LAST enemy was destroyed, and that pretty much covers ALL enemies – there can be NO enemies beyond this LAST one. Therefore, IF the last enemy to be destroyed was death, then regardless of what you, I or anyone else thinks – God has no more enemies from God's perspective. Having made peace through the blood of Christ's Cross, God HAS reconciled all things in heaven and on earth to Himself. So even if in the ignorance or arrogance of some men's feeble minds they consider themselves as God's enemies, from HIS perspective they are not; even Paul affirms this" (cite )
     

  • Ward Fenley (2008) "Ah, yes. You must be referring to Sam Frost. Sam is a partial preterist, not a preterist. I'm not sure why, but he has grown more and more inconsistent in his hermeneutic. A lot of times this comes from pressure and a non-exegetical, non-covenantal approach to Scripture." (Responding to: "You know, regarding "the cosmological interpretation by so-called preterists" of Genesis creation, I recently heard a self-described preterist posit a future/physical interpretation of Isaiah 65 at a preterist conference. It would not be an overstatement, in my opinion, to say that the view he presented there represents a departure from full preterism.")  (cite)
     

  • Seeking Author - "If you believe the scriptures, there was a resurrection of many of the saints of old whose graves burst open when Jesus was crucified and they came out of their graves after the resurrection of Jesus and were seen of many in the city. Jesus is the resurrection and the life. But the above scripture was written after His resurrection, but before A.D. 70. A resurrection around A. D. 70 makes perfectly good sense. This was the end of the Old Covenant and the fulfillment of the promises made to the saints of old as well as the disciples and apostles. All of the apostles except John were dead by A. D. 70."   (Seeking Cite)
     

  • Don Preston - "We believe we have shown that in Matthew 24:36, when Jesus said "But of that day and hour knoweth no man," that his reference was to "that day" that would climax "those days" leading up to the final dissolution of the Old Heaven and Earth of Israel at the return of Messiah in 70 AD."  (Those Days - vs - That Day)
     

  • Rivers of Eden - "Sound logic would demand that you be able to produce substantial evidence that such is the case, otherwise my simple assertion that only "the houses of Isreal and Judah" were the benefactors of the "new covenant" is the only plausible interpretation of Jeremiah 31:31. Jesus plainly stated that he was "sent ONLY to the lost sheep of ISRAEL" (Matthew 15:24). Are the implications of this text any less clear than those of any of the time statements?" (This view would probably be considered hyper preterism by a large percentage of HyPs)
     

  • Larry Siegle "The “new heavens and a new earth” does not imply that every individual living beyond the end of the Old Covenant “age” would be saved, and there is no evidence of any “outer” courtyard that once separated people (Gentiles) from entry into the “holy place” or the “most holy place” of God’s earthly, typical temple in Jerusalem. Now there is only the “most holy place” where God’s people forever dwell together in the presence of God, inside the confines of the New Covenant, as represented by the “holy city” the New Jerusalem."
     

  • William Urmy "In verses 30 and 31 of the twenty-fourth chapter of Matthew it is said, "And they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet," etc. Now, it cannot be reasonably doubted that these comings are the same, for they are both comings in glory and with the angels, yet in the thirty-fourth verse of the same chapter our Lord solemnly declares: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished." As, therefore, his coming in power and glory was one of "these things," we are forced to the conclusion that he did come in glory within about forty years after the utterance of the sermon on the Mount of Olives, that that coming was a coming to judgment, and that therefore the judgment day came long centuries ago. " (Christ Came Again, p. 313)
     

  • Joseph Vincent - "Since it is my belief that the thousand year period is a direct reference to the “generation” to which Jesus predicted all the events of Matthew 23:36 and 24:34, and the same generation in which Jesus began to “bind the strong man” as recorded in Matthew 12:28-29 and Luke 10:17-20, it follows therefore that it must also precede or take place before the events of the great tribulation and the final resurrection and glory of the Saints at the coming of the Lord." (The Millennium)

 

  • David Curtis: (2007) "At the end of the Fourth Gospel Jesus is talking to Peter and tells him what kind of death he would experience. In response to this:  Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His breast at the supper, and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?" 21 Peter therefore seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?"    (John 21:20-21 NASB).  Jesus tells Peter how he is going to die and Peter’s response is, “What about Lazarus”? As soon as the topic became death, who did Peter’s mind turn to? Lazarus!  Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!"    (John 21:22 NASB) This is a preteristic verse. Jesus is saying, If I want Lazarus to live until I come what is that to you. Would Jesus say this if His coming was thousands of years away?" The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved: Who Wrote the Fourth Gospel?

 


THE MOST SERIOUS CONSIDERATIONS
DOES FULL PRETERISM TEACH "A DIFFERENT GOSPEL"? 

"As a preterist, I believe there is no need for it as proselytizing because God is all in all. However, sharing the good news is always a good thing." http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/837014-what-must-we-do-saved-5.html#ixzz0ZKrPtILi

Bryan Lewis (2010) "I am among those Preterist who realize that (HyP) Preterism is absolutely not Orthodox Christianity. It is my opinion, there is no fellowship between the two now, nor has their ever been historically." (Am I a Christian?)
 

Sam Frost: "And, for those Full Preterists out there that are going to cry, yet again, “foul” and “they don’t represent us”, cry again.  This is the overwhelming response I have received.  One “friend” has completely and entirely ignored me, won’t talk to me, won’t interact, answer their phones, nothing.  This is a cult like mentality.  Full Preterism is, in and of itself, just another view of eschatology.  However, certain Full PreterISTS have made it into quite something else: the gospel itself

Why Hyper Preterism Teaches a Different Gospel
 

MOST ADMIT THE CHANGES WROUGHT TO ALL AREAS OF DOCTRINE & PRACTICE

Grady Brown

  • "Did they fulfill the Great Commission? — for their world and for their day, yes they did! But we are living in a different world and a different day, and that world is waiting for some Good News. " (That All May Be Fulfilled, p. 453)

Dave Green

  • “Keith Mathison was correct on this point: If futurism is true, then preterism is definitely a damnable doctrine.”

  • “I agree that FPism demands that many areas of our theology must be "tweaked." In at least some cases though, the "tweaking" involves an amplification or clarification of the elements of Reformed theology. For example, the Reformation doctrine of "justification by faith alone" is (as you may recall) established, proven and brought to logical realization through FPism. If the eschatological aspect or process of justification is not yet fulfilled (Rom. 4:23-24), then we cannot be fully and finally justified today, and the Reformed doctrine of justification by faith alone is false, and we should all be kissing the Pope's ring and buying Indulgences. There's no scriptural escape from this. There is logically no Reformation without FPism.” (Quoted in Heterodox Confessions of Hyperpreterists)

    • Dr. Kenneth G. Talbot: "This is a confession that Reformed Theology is not compatible in its original construction and therefore its doctrinal system must be manipulated to fit Full (Hyper) Preteristic thought. However, it should be pointed out that Green’s example of justification by faith as defined by the Reformers and their Confessions is misunderstood completely. This is consequence of laymen dealing with theology."

Bryan Lewis

  • Unlike many of my brothers and sisters, I think we must stop trying to fit Preterism into the neat box of Orthodox Christianity, especially into the world of Creeds and Confessions. I do not see how true full preterism (Fulfilled Salvation/no future judgment of all men, No Future Coming, etc...) could ever peacefully co-exist with Orthodox Christianity. (Quoted in Heterodox Confessions of Hyperpreterists)

  • (2010) "I am among those Preterist who realize that (HyP) Preterism is absolutely not Orthodox Christianity. It is my opinion, there is no fellowship between the two now, nor has their ever been historically." (Am I a Christian?)

Thomas Rattray

  • "Having previously, by an inductive method, drawn from Scripture an Eschatology which placed its subjects at the end of the Mosaic age, and not as generally understood at the end of time; I was led, in this series of discourses, to present the evidences for a conclusion, so different from what has been, and is now, held in Christendom." (1878)

William S. Urmy

  • "The system of eschatology which this work presents requires that certain changes be made not only in the current thought of the day concerning the second coming of Christ, but in creeds, articles of faith, rituals, and hymns, where they refer to this and kindred eschatological subjects." (1900)

Larry Siegle

  • "There are three aspects to the events of A.D. 70 that deserve clarification in order to achieve a proper balance in our understanding of exactly what happened in the first-century. There are those who draw conclusions that are not necessarily the logical implications and therefore takes a person down a very long and dark pathway into error in their understanding of the Scriptures. Unless one is able to properly discern what “ended” in A.D. 70, in contrast with what “began” and therefore what “remains” his conclusions will be to take an extreme position concerning the truth."

  • “In addition, those who seek to frame the conversation within the flawed context of either Calvinism or Arminianism, Reformed, Restorationist or otherwise, the battle is surrendered into the hands of those who would control every other element of systematic theology. The message of the Cross, and that which was accomplished through those events associated with the glorious ‘second advent’ of Jesus Christ in A.D. 70 cannot be “limited” or trusted into people of unclean hands.” (Quoted in Heterodox Confessions of Hyperpreterists)

Virgil Vaduva
(All Quoted in "Heterodox Confessions of Hyperpreterists")

  • “To pre-empt more accusations that I hate Calvin, I will be the first to say that Calvin’s theology is right on the mark: for a futurist that is. Calvin read the Scriptures as a futurist, understood atonement as a futurist and perceived election as a futurist. His theology is therefore quite accurate from a futurist perspective…”. He continues: “The surprising thing for me is that Preterists continue to adopt limited atonement and election as if nothing changed in AD 70. The truth is that everything changed!”

  • “…Preterism affects virtually every aspect of Christianity, so what I am experiencing, is that just when I think I have something figured out, something else becomes more obvious or more obscure. We should therefore all look at Preterism as the means to a fuller understanding of Scripture, not the end of the trip. Until one of us will sit down and develop a systematic theology volume from a Preterist perspective, some confusion will continue to reign, especially since many of us Preterists still appear to be stuck in the ways of tradition and creeds.”

  • “The future of Preterism doesn’t hinge on building a bigger box labeled “Preterism” but on tearing down the box and reaching the world.”

  • “For some people, Preterism did not affect much of their understanding of theology besides eschatological timelines; but for others, their entire understanding of Christianity was shaken to its foundation. … Because of the complex implications of an A.D. 70 parousia of Jesus, we see some other elements coming into the debate, such as Christian Universalism for example, which suggests that all humanity has been saved through Christ. I suggested something less dramatic in a previous article, making the case for a “Comprehensive Reconciliation” which was manifested through God’s presence being restored to all humanity.”

 

FORMER FULL PRETERISTS SAY THERE IS A CONTRAST WITH HISTORICAL CHRISTIANITY

Sam Frost

  • Preterism changes certain aspects of certain other doctrines." (8/17/09)

  • “Preterism, the word I choose to call this doctrine and movement, is a risky venture. Two millennia of Church tradition on the Second Coming of Christ is now seen as an error. This was not a minor theological dispute, either. The Second Coming of Christ was and is a major tenet of Christianity. Most Christians that have come across preterist material immediately scoff at its views. Some have undertaken to wipe it out completely if possible as a damanable heresy. …Preterism is an interpretive system that is locked on the vents of 66-70 A.D. It views this as the decisive eschatological event. The Second Coming, Resurrection of the Dead and Great Judgment are seen as having taken place in and around these years. This is a contradiction to Christian orthodoxy and its Creeds, Councils, and all the Reformed, Baptist, and Methodist Standards (and we wonder why preterists are called “heretics”!)”

Brian Simmons

  •  Why Hyper Preterism Teaches a Different Gospel (2009) "Firstly, the concept of “salvation” endorsed by Hyper-Preterism is radically different from that which Futurists espouse. Historically, Christians have always believed that salvation involves redemption from the consequences of Adam’s fall. These include moral and physical death as well as indwelling sin. That is, we see the results of Adam’s fall as being not simply moral in nature, but physical and anthropological as well. Paul writes, again and again, that the “entire man” is covered by Christ’s redemptive plan (see 1 Thessalonians 5: 23; Romans 8: 11; 1 Corinthians 6: 13-20; Ephesians 1: 14)."

Todd Dennis

  • AD70 Storyline Fundamentally Different From Historical Christianity // By declaring that the New Covenant didn't really come into maturity until AD70 (despite the fact that Christians had already been given access to the holiest of all 40 years prior -- cf. Hebrews 10:19-22)  Hyper Preterism clearly teaches a different gospel message than that originally received from the pen of Inspiration recording Jesus as saying "It is finished" (attended by the tearing of the veil of separation).   To teach that this access into the holiest of all is based on something other than the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is an egregious error.  There are many other examples of AD70 becoming a primary focal point, outshining the glory revealed in the Sacrifice of the Lamb.    However, that is just an example of how the AD70 Storyline is Fundamentally Different from Historical Christianity's Old Rugged Cross.  

    • [Full Preterist Response: "I categorically state that the physical object of the cross, wood and fiber, is not worthy of the love and adoration of Christians."] 

 


Is the Cross of Jesus Christ Diminished by the "AD70 Salvation
" Myth?

Stephen Douglas  "As long as the Old Covenant was kicking, as long as the Temple was standing and the Jewish cultus was active, the old system was functioning mockingly alongside the New Covenant built upon the shed blood of Christ; that’s what AD 70 was about - filling up the new wineskins and effectively bursting the old wineskins with the new wine. The “New World Order” of Christianity was the direct result of the fulfillment and abolition of the Old one." undeception.com/index.php/2008/09/14/first-things-and-last-things

Tim Martin (2007) "After all, the High Priest did more than just shed the blood of the sacrifice on the Day of Atonement. He had to go into the Holy of Holies (ascend) and apply the blood as directed in the Law, and then come back out (return) to show the people that his annual work on behalf of the people was complete. The preterist view is notably Hebraic in its view of Christ’s full work of redemption. Christ fulfilled all of the detail in the Law by A.D. 70."

//

"My comment at the end of this article regarding "the old rugged cross" was related to Todd Dennis' closing statement in his article:

"Rather, I pray that all such Bereans will be given the wisdom to understand how far from the received gospel the HyP view truly is. Perhaps as this concept being exposed to them, love for the old rugged cross will inspire a sincerely critical examination of the "salvation in AD70" view."

It should also be noted that the term "the old rugged cross" does not appear in Scripture. It is the title of a modern hymn penned by George Bennard in 1913. For those who will actually examine the hymn, which Todd alluded to first in his article, you will see that the hymn features prominent lyrics based in the doctrines of futurism.

Furthermore, there are no commands in Scripture to have "love for that old rugged cross." However, the Roman Catholic Church does have a long history in venerating "holy" objects as "aids to worship."

I categorically state that the physical object of the cross, wood and fiber, is not worthy of the love and adoration of Christians. Their deepest love should always be reserved for the living person who saved them and the God who is their righteousness.
" // Tom: "insipid idolatry of a wooden object"
http://planetpreterist.com/modules.php?name=News&file=comments&op=showreply&tid=41505&sid=5582&pid=41496&mode=&order=&thold=#41505

[Ironically, it seems that the view which agrees that "the Law didn't end until AD70, and then ended utterly" is the actual insipid idolatry... focusing on natural events, as it does, regarding a wood and stone building (!) to the exclusion of Jesus' abiding minstry as the telos/eschatos of the Law of sin and death.  The comments underscore my original point of AD70 stealing the glory of the cross -- utilizing a doctrine (AD70 Dispensationalism) unknown in the history of Christianity until the advent of Hyper Preterism in the 19th century.   Those who spoke of AD70 prior to then did so with the fall of Jerusalem as solely the effect of the coming of salvation, and not the cause.  cf. Eusebius

Arthur Melanson "Salvation didn’t come at the cross. It didn’t come at Pentecost. It didn’t come at the ascension. According to the pattern of the Old Testament, forgiveness of sins came when the high priest came out from the Presence behind the veil. "

"Hope is something we wait for that we do not yet have. Salvation was still a hope in that day." (The Appearing of the High Priest)

 


So.. IS FULL PRETERISM JUST A THEOLOGICAL ALTERNATIVE... OR IS IT SOME FORM OF CULT?

Frost "One wonders how, if ever, Full Preterism comes to power how they would treat dissenters! "

"I'll tell you though, this "preterism" has sure tipped me on my head. I wasn't looking for this and it's like I was just going on my merry way, turned a corner then WHAM! Kind of similar to the teaching on election and some other things but I think this one has me reeling the most"  T.L.
 

Dennis M. Swanson "The HP position, as currently construed, is “comprehensive” in that it (whether its adherents realize it or not) has developed a theological construct that affects every aspect of theology and biblical interpretation. So pervasive are the implications of this system and so pernicious are the outcomes that it is not too much to call this movement “proto-cultic,” that is, a potential cult in the making. The implications of HP in terms of both theology and practical Christian living will not lead to the “reformation” envisioned by its adherents; it can only lead to “retrogression,” a movement backwards to the error of Hymenaeus and Philetus, an error Paul roundly condemned as “overthrowing the faith of many” (2 Tim 2:18)" (IPA: Reformation or Retrogression? Pages 57-58)

This may seem like an incendiary question, but it is a legitimate one.  After all, there are such things as dangerous cults, aren't there? 

"Dangerous cults are small splinter groups from mainstream groups which usually base their whole world-view on a single point taken to the extreme.  Sometimes their point is secular, but more often it is theological in nature.  Those within these groups evangelize endlessly over this one point, searching far and wide for single converts to that extreme point.  In the Internet era, that includes email barrages, message board spamming, and the like.   When those evangelists are challenged by those in the mainstream whose beliefs they seek to overthrow, they lash back viciously at those who would otherwise be kindred spirits, considering how close the views are -- apart from that single extreme point.  These types of groups are often prosecuted for their extreme views, but within the group this is seen as persecution, thereby "proving" to them the sanctity of the endeavor - and the threat that they pose to the mainstream.  Instead of seeing critical arguments for their inherently instructive value, they are dismissed as "hate" or "slander" - proving how personally the extreme point is taken by the individuals within the group.    Those who are more forceful and vocally ruthless tend to rise to the top in these groups, with the followers treating their leaders as heroes - the perfect men (or women) to bring about sweeping changes in the mainstream due to their powers of persuasion.   Anyone who is lucky enough to break free of the group is treated with scorn as a traitor, and is assumed to have mental or emotional problems from having done so.   They are quickly forgotten, and the reasons for their departure are rarely discussed, except when utilized as fodder for mockery.   Many of those who remain within the group for a long period find their thought processes changed so greatly that it becomes increasingly difficult for them to interact with the mainstream outside of discussion on their extreme hobby horse points.   No amount of losses --  be it friends, family, churches, husbands, wives, children, or personal peace -- are taken as evidence that some form of disorder has developed."

As familiar as this sounds to full preterism (but by no means all of it, and certainly not across the board on any one point)  I believe this question is worthy of further investigation.   Direct quotes will be placed here which may reflect or deflect from the investigation into whether or not full preterism is a cultic.  I know of full preterists who exhibit none of these characteristics, and so the attempt is in no way to besmirch the individuals within this preterist splinter group.  Just because someone's quote appears below doesn't necessarily mean that they are cultic... just that it serves as a potential bit of evidence in the overall study on the effects of joining the full preterist splinter group.

I must admit, it took me two years of being out of the group before such thoughts even crossed my mind.   But the cruel barrage against those who left the view and - heaven forbid - had anything critical to say about it after leaving has been relentless.   I have honestly never seen anything like it in my life... how quickly people can be seen as bitter enemies for simply talking about how the Holy Spirit has led them in a different direction.   The smears and insults against very sincere people - and the methods employed to silence them - had forced me to rethink the level of danger in joining up with this full preterist splinter group.  Since that time (2006/2007), it has become more and more clear that the isolationism displayed in the full preterist community's general rejection of the Christian Church at large is a strong indicator of cult like fanaticism, if not outright proof.


Comments from Futurists "in the know" (Full Archive Here)

  • Eduardo Flores  (2009) "As for Full Preterism, either it is false or it is true. Either Jesus Christ came In A.D. 70 and fulfilled all the prophesies or He hasn’t come yet. My sincere worries about FP are that this view changes the concepts of the major beliefs of Christianity. The Parousia, the Judgment Day, his Second Coming, the relationship of Israel and the Church, the Resurrection, the Body, and many other word-concept complexes are changed. I have seen some differences in the gospel as well."

  • Samuel Miller (1841) "When heresy rises in an evangelical body, it is never frank and open. It always begins by skulking, and assuming a disguise. Its advocates, when together, boast of great improvements, and congratulate one another on having gone greatly beyond the "old dead orthodoxy,"ť and on having left behind many of its antiquated errors: but when taxed with deviations from the received faith, they complain of the unreasonableness of their accusers, as they "differ from it only in words." This has been the standing course of errorists ever since the apostolic age. They are almost never honest and candid as a party, until they gain strength enough to be sure of some degree of popularity. Thus it was with Arius in the fourth century, with Pelagius in the fifth, with Arminius and his companions in the seventeenth, with Amyraut and his associates in France soon afterwards, and with the Unitarians in Massachusetts, toward the close of the eighteenth and the beginning of the nineteenth centuries. They denied their real tenets, evaded examination or inquiry, declaimed against their accusers as merciless bigots and heresy-hunters, and strove as long as they could to appear to agree with the most orthodox of their neighbours; until the time came when, partly from inability any longer to cover up their sentiments, and partly because they felt strong enough to come out, they at length avowed their real opinions."

  • Dr. Kenneth G. Talbot: Position Paper (2009) "This irresistible desire for “validation” has been a “waste of time” and “resources” for a theory that only has presence primarily in ‘virtual reality.

  •   // "Heretics always point to those doctrines that they have in common with orthodox theology. They do this in order to deflect the attention away from those doctrines that are in complete conflict with ‘historic orthodoxy.’ That is what makes heretics so very dangerous and deceitful in their teachings."

 

  • Mike Sullivan "I have email correspondence as well which states very clearly that he no longer holds to the literal rapture view.  This doesn't mean that either you or me are liars.  My guess is that Walt is going back and forth due to the "its my way or the highway" mentality of Mr. Ed Stevens.  I remember when I first was becoming a FP, I did this back and forth thing for a while.  Some people I told I believed the Second Coming already happened and others I said that I thought it was a view that needed to be considered and when they pressed me if I believed it, I said, "I'm still studying."  (Re: [PretCosmos] Walt Hibbard no longer literal rapturist, 10/30/9)

  • Hal: "When I tried to “witness” to a person who I had known for a long time (and was directly responsible for my return to Christiandom), that person did something I didn’t expect. He did an Internet search on my name. In the beginning of my change from dispensationalism (as my friend was) to full-preterism, I signed off my real name in comment from an Internet site. My friend stumbled across this comment, realized that it spoke of a PAST 2nd coming, and then asked me to clarify if that was indeed me who wrote the comment. Since Christians are not supposed to lie, I told him the truth. AND FROM THAT POINT ON, I lost him as an open audience. Since that time I have never responded with my real name." http://preterismdebate.ning.com/profiles/blogs/who-is-hal-the-shortest-blog?id=4171784%3ABlogPost%3A2744&page=3#comments

  • Edward J. Hassertt:   1) If full preterism is damnable heresy and no full preterist is a brother in Christ to the futurist  2) Then no one in full preterism is a Christian since no full preterist is a brother in Christ    3) It follows then that the current critics of preterism who were preterist before turning on us, were not Christian then (by their word they could not have been)   4) This means they are recent converts to Christianity    5) As such they should be learning in silence not declaring themselves leaders and teaching others.   If they are right about preterism then they should obey scripture and stop trying to teach others. If instead, they feel they have the ability to teach others, their own behavior disproves their claims about preterists not being Christians!"

    • Dave Green response: “Hi Ed,   Your argument is, of course, unanswerable and devastating.  The ones accusing us of being arrogant are, by the logic of their own words, arrogant. By their own words, they are new converts to Christianity. Yet they’re making themselves into teachers/leaders. Thus according to their own words, they are “novices” who are “lifted up with pride” and fallen “into the condemnation of the devil” (1 Tim. 3:6) –while calling us arrogant, of all things! LOL     Irony of ironies.   Thank you Ed!   Dave" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PretCosmos/message/19108

 

 

"Hyper Preterist Dementia"
Personality Disorder, Extremism, or just Bad Manners?

These days, it has become very common for people to leave full preterism and write about why.   Unfortunately, many of those still caught within the chains of AD70-ism refuse to pay close attention to the testimonies of these - convinced as they are of "the gospel truth of Covenant Eschatology".   Instead of soberly and carefully examining the sincere claims of former hyper prets, a systematic attack on the personality of the individual commences, as though by disqualifying the individual, the testimony is nullified.   Accordingly, in "Palin Derangement Syndrome" fashion, current hyper preterists publicly declare that the individual who has left their view did so because of emotional problems or just downright dishonesty.  In this, they completely refuse to even acknowledge the possibility that there are numerous (yes, numerous) exegetical reasons to abandon that view.   Quotes are here offered to substantiate this claim.   

It seems as though those in that circle believe that if a person opposes the full preterist view, then they are given over to hate and that their testimony is consequently not worthy of consideration. The lack of any call for restraint coming from those in the HyP circle of leadership underscores the widespread consent with this type of extremist rhetoric.  

On Sam Frost defining "Hyper Preterism"

  • "Sam knows he is loosing credibility among FP/Covenant Eschatology folks really fast, so he is desperately trying to re-define the terms so that we are now "hyper-preterists"---- Selah!  ..Sam has struggled with alcohol and his marriage and hasn't been experiencing the joy of the Lord as much as he wants to. He blames FP for this and continues to "drift" more and more back into the PP "orthodox" and "scholarly" world hoping this will solve his problems. Sorry Sam - it might temporarily, but in the long run it will only magnify your problems and specifically your conscience 7 fold!"

 This tendency to protect the system at all costs -- particularly in seeking the disqualification of the individual (as though dislike of one's personality is enough grounds to dismiss their appeal to the Bible) -- is actually very disturbing.   Borrowing from the Sarah Palin "PDS" theme, and in the (non-hateful) spirit of "Dispensationalist Dementia", this tendency will be referred to as "Hyper Preterist Dementia".

  • Those Who Oppose Full Preterism Do So Out of Hate

  • Those Who Leave Full Preterism Have Personal Problems

  • Those Who Leave Full Preterism Should be Ignored

  • Those Who Leave Full Preterism Reject the Bible

 

Roderick Edwards
“Here we are practically begging this man to speak up & instead he dishonorably told us he'll wait until the battle is so dire, then he'll come in & deliver the death blow. If it was a real battle on a field, I would not want such a man as an ally. What coward lets his friends take all the arrows & then comes in at the last moment to behave like he won the battle? A man sculpting a cult of his own making, thats who. I guess Todd thinks it is now time to deliver his "death blow" so he now uses the infestation of the preterist universalism to declare the whole of full preterism so corrupt that it must die & -- wow! Todd is Johnny-on-the-spot to offer an alternative. Perhaps he will claim he doesn't care who takes up his new offering? Right, the man knows he commands the most visited site on full preterism & he would dare to pretend he is just expressing his "personal view"? Many people are actually now really taking up Todd's new version of preterism, but why? Because men like him set back while the battle was raging & like a coward came in to steal away the war & the victory.”

EndTimesMan
“This has nothing to do with our discussion. You endevour to continue denying the timing Christ put things in. Once you come to the true timetables then the rest will fit. Your speculation is not impressive and actually speaks something else of you. You have no proof, do you?”

Tim Martin
"
From my observations, the problem of personal issues like the ones that have been bandied about recently is personal immaturity, foolishness, and sin in various forms. These things are corrosive to the life of faith.  Always has been always will be. Those things will take their toll. God doesn't allow his people to wallow in the junk without repercussions...  The ironic thing is that some are suggesting that their personal experience indicates a "problem" with full-preterist theology. If that isn't the "blame game," I don't know what is. All based on personal observations (empirical in nature) and feelings, no less! Others have done it before, too, in my opinion. Similar arguments were introduced in the "preterist-idealist" fiasco a few years ago. Nothing new here.  That is my advice to those pondering blaming full-preterism for their own issues. Don't do it. You're just digging your own misery in deeper and deeper. If you don't take responsibility it is only going to get worse.
" (10/9/10)

Dan Parker
"I am sure it has all been explained to you but you are even less likely to understand the written word than the first Century Jews were, you know the ones that killed the Christ because he was a heretic.
You are an enemy of God same as they were and have made yourself so by your willful blindness. John said "my people die for lack of knowledge" you are doubly as dead as they because you are without excuse. Jesus said on the cross "forgive them for they know not what they do" but he is not here to say that for you."

Virgil Vaduva
"For an insignificant movement you put an awful lot of effort into slandering it and its proponents. I think you have some serious issues…"
Why I Don't Teach Preterism

Mike Sullivan
"I will say the same thing about you that I did Roderick.  I pointed out how there is no middle ground and that Roderick's heart would eventually get harder from his sin of rejecting and compromising the Word of God.  That is the road you are on..
And because of this, reading you (like Roderick) will end up being a complete waist of anyone's time." (PretCoz Yahoo)
 

Larry Siegle
"There are three aspects to the events of A.D. 70 that deserve clarification in order to achieve a proper balance in our understanding of exactly what happened in the first-century. There are those who draw conclusions that are not necessarily the logical implications and therefore takes a person down a very long and dark pathway into error in their understanding of the Scriptures. Unless one is able to properly discern what “ended” in A.D. 70, in contrast with what “began” and therefore what “remains” his conclusions will be to take an extreme position concerning the truth."

RESPONSE TO THIS HYPER PRETERIST BEHAVIOR

Parson's Pen: "What about the comparison of the left-wing attacks on Sarah Palin and the Apostolic Full-Preterist method of debate? Apostolic Full-Preterists do not take kindly to the disproving of their pet points. Their ire usually is shown in a ridiculing attack that mocks, insults, and demeans those that disagree. Rather than to intellectually defend their position, their preferred method is to “intimidate or anger” anyone that dares to challenges their doctrine."

 


FOUNDATIONS OF "AD70 DISPENSATIONALISM":
THE AD70 WORLD/AGE HYPOTHESIS

THIS WORLD = OLD COVENANT AGE (UNTIL AD70)
WORLD TO COME = NEW COVENANT AGE (AFTER AD70)

Identifying "the age to come" solely with an earthly aion is under consideration for a special warning label, in that this misconception has become axiomatic in all "consistent preterist" theologies.  Certain orthodox preterists claim this "ages view" as well, so I won't at this time classify it as "Hyper Preterism".  It will suffice for now to simply call attention to the consequences of the "AD70 World/Age Hypothesis".

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry , nor are given in marriage ("Worthy to obtain" demonstrates that the "world to come" isn't received based upon simple chronology (i.e. AD70), but upon the grounds of worthiness, which can only be one's identification with the Cross of Jesus Christ.)


 

What do YOU think ?

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Yeah, I have a lot of questions, and a lot of problems with "pret-idealism". But I just saw this morning a post on another public forum slandering (Yes, *slandering*) Todd Dennis, and so I wanted to clarify something:

Todd and I disagree on some things, which we have discussed. However, he is a dear friend of mine, and a brother in Christ. He of all people may not appreciate this post, because he has wisely counseled me on more than one occasion to not respond to the mockers, the adversaries, and those who go about seeking to devour God's people.

But I feel it is important to clarify that I have far more in common with my brother, Todd, though we may disagree on some doctrinal points, than I do with someone who by merely verbal assent holds some of the same doctrinal positions which I do, and yet goes about attacking the character of Christians and sowing discord among brothers.

Mercy *triumphs* over judgment. Mercy is the glory of the Kingdom of Christ. And mercy is what displays the character of the Kingdom to the world. And Todd is one of the most merciful people I have ever met.

Tami


Date: 28 Oct 2009
Time: 11:33:26

Your Comments:

Dear Friends:

You will no doubt embrace a negative view of me, from what I am reading above, because I don't see you proving from the Holy Word of God that the people you despise as heretics are wrong to say that our precious Savior guaranteed that He would come in the natural lifetime of His First Century listeners.
Having said that, I think that it quite easy for people believing in any theological view to find anecdotal evidence of intolerance of what they believe. I remember being in a Sunday School class years ago where the Book of the Revelation was being discussed. At the time I was a partial preterist postmillenialist. You could hear a pin drop and the tension of deadly silence just by an honest question about "must shortly come to pass".
This is why I think you folks, although well-intentioned, are more in error than the supposed heretics you condemn. The real paranoia in the household of Christianity is NOT among full preterists....rather, it is the fear of any honest discussion of the plain words of the Olivet Discourse.
To me, what you are doing is similar to what the Republican Party has often done to prolifers or to Pat Buchanan. It is political and not theological.
I share with you, however, the deep concerns about the high impact of the shock value of preterism presented in a fashion which is disconnected from any love for the continuity of Christianity. That is a strategic error in and among many who become preterists. Also, it is true that full preterist has preceded atheism for some. But, again, so has strict literalism and young earth creationism.

God bless

Paul Richard Strange, SR
119 Marvin Gardens
Waxahachie Texas 75165
972 937 7129
dadprs@hotmail.com

I am simply a follower of God through Jesus Christ who is persuaded that we should not play politics with His words in order to marginalize and demonize each other...may God grant more Bereans!

[Paul, thanks for the comments.  Just to let you know, I embrace a positive view of you!  You are surely blessed to have a Savior like our Lord.  Good enough?    I don't condemn you in the slightest!  Now, as for that theology of yours... haha.  I clearly hold a negative view of it.  But, I am allowed, am I not?   After a decade of sculpting the full preterist movement along with others, I found the flaw.  If you would like to hear more about the Holy Word of God's condemnation and refutation of the full preterist view, feel free to write or call.]


Date: 26 Sep 2010
Time: 16:01:05

Your Comments:

I think it does seem very strange that the church would be wrong for two millinia about the parousia but I also see that it is not logically necessary that because they have believed His coming is still future for all these years that they are correct on that ground. I was a rip roaring futurist and came accross some man on the radio calaiming Christ had already returned. I was taken aback(to be mild about it). But I check everything out, If for nothing else but to refute it. There is considerable support toward the idea that Christ did come sometime in the first century that I can see. I remember having read it in the past but being a young believer at the time and having my "authorities" tell me that there was a good explanation, I let it slide until I had more scripture under my belt.
Indeed, if this is taken to be true, then there would need to be a few changes to some of the creeds. Remember, creeds are summaries of what the scriptures teach. Changes to them should not be made lightly as they are constitutions, as the constitution of the united states is but differ in that we have the source clearly set forth in the scripture from which the documents are drawn.
 


Date: 26 Sep 2010
Time: 16:01:05

Your Comments:

I think it does seem very strange that the church would be wrong for two millinia about the parousia but I also see that it is not logically necessary that because they have believed His coming is still future for all these years that they are correct on that ground. I was a rip roaring futurist and came accross some man on the radio calaiming Christ had already returned. I was taken aback(to be mild about it). But I check everything out, If for nothing else but to refute it. There is considerable support toward the idea that Christ did come sometime in the first century that I can see. I remember having read it in the past but being a young believer at the time and having my "authorities" tell me that there was a good explanation, I let it slide until I had more scripture under my belt.
Indeed, if this is taken to be true, then there would need to be a few changes to some of the creeds. Remember, creeds are summaries of what the scriptures teach. Changes to them should not be made lightly as they are constitutions, as the constitution of the united states is but differ in that we have the source clearly set forth in the scripture from which the documents are drawn.

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