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End Times Chart


Introduction and Key

Gary DeMar shows the failure of John Murray's "Historical Idealism"
(Contrasted with Modern Idealism - the native hermeneutic of PreteristArchive.com.  MI is to Historical Idealism as HP is to HyP.)

Church-State Relations and the Book of Revelation By Todd Dennis, Curator
 (Futurist: 1979-1996; Full Preterist: 1996-2006; Idealist: 2006-Eis tous aionios ton aionion)

Preterist-Idealism: The Wintery Flight (1876) "All who believed in Jesus Christ remembered what He had said, and left their homes hurriedly, and fled to a little town called Pella, on the other side of the river Jordan. Not one Christian perished in the siege of Jerusalem. The Jews who had refused to believe in Jesus, trusted to their strong walls, and their weapons, and stayed in the city..  Now, my children, I have not told you these things only as a chapter of history. I want you to learn some very important lessons from these words. For us there is an escape, a flight, to be undertaken, and for us there is a place of refuge like Pella. "

Scripture Interprets Scripture

Part 1: The Covenants, The Jerusalems, The Flesh and The Spirit.

By Nathan DuBois
Nate 4 One Nation

 

Full Preterism vs. Idealism - Part One : Introduction | Part Two - Full Preterism's Achilles Heel | Part Three - Full Preterism's "New" Gospel | Full Preterism vs. Idealism: Part Four : Full Preterism's Single Dimension Focus

My Thoughts and Understanding of Preterist Idealism | God, The Judge of the Heart | Why I Needed to Repent: A Letter to a Friend... Among Friends | The Nature of the Christ: The Dilema of Chronology | Scripture Interprets Scripture: Part One - The Covenants, The Jerusalems, The Flesh and The Spirit | Response to "Expectations Demand a Rapture" | Nate4OneNation



Under this line of thought, where we discuss scripture interpreting scripture, I want to post a few parallels. I will change up the topics as time goes on.

Consider the overwhelming parallel between these two chapters.

In Galatians 4:
Slave Woman = Old Jerusalem from Below = old covenant
Free Woman = Jerusalem from above (new covenant)

In Romans 7-8:
Slave to sin (flesh) = law of sin and death = old covenant
Slave to righteousness = In Christ = new covenant

 


Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. 24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband." 28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." 31 Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Romans 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.


Is it possible that the Jerusalem below was only there to represent the flesh and the magnification of the external?

Notice...

Galatians 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." 31 Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

And

Romans 8: 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Since most preterists agree that the kingdom is within and written on the heart and that the Spirit brought us to life and into an eternal covenant (the new covenant on the heart), then isn't the description of the Jerusalem from above warranted and accurate as a portrayal of our heart in Christ vs. the Jerusalem from below as our heart under the law?

God Bless
Nate

What do YOU think ?

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  • Date: 07 Dec 2006
    Time: 10:14:24

    Comments:

    Nate writes:
    Since most preterists agree that the kingdom is within and written on the heart and that the Spirit brought us to life and into an eternal covenant (the new covenant on the heart), then isn't the description of the Jerusalem from above warranted and accurate as a portrayal of our heart in Christ vs. the Jerusalem from below as our heart under the law?


    Nate you are missing the entire point here. This (Galatians 4) was FULFILLED in AD 70.
     
    Either that, or if it is ongoing today still, you have people who are Christians under the Law still who are not in the kingdom.
     
    Galatians 4
    1What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father.
     

    It is not a prophesy about individual hearts NOW. You can't just rip it out of it's context and make new allegories of out of Paul's allegories and call them ongoing fulfillments, as you please. That is not sound interpretation.
     
    I can play the scripture interprets scripture thing too, only mine is in context. This event (Galatians 4) is also seen in Luke 21:20-22, 32.
     
    Luke 21
    21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
     
    At the destruction of Jerusalem, all which was written was fulfilled in that generation (and it doesn't mean stock). Either that or there are Christians that are still under guardians and don't have the inheritance.


    Date: 07 Dec 2006
    Time: 10:03:48

    Nate, I don't know why you and Todd are making such a great push with this stuff publicly without even really putting it to the test first. But your interpretation of Galatians 4 is opening a can of worms for your view that you will not be able to handle nor interpret unless done by twisting and torturing scriptures.
     
    Your view that these events in Galatians 4 are ongoing today, mean that:
     
    1. There are Christians are still under the law / guardians and don't have the inheritance yet.

    2. Tongues is still going on, and there are Christians not in the New Covenant yet.

    3. Apostles, prophets and pastors still.

    4. The torture of the words sopken in Luke 21:20-22, 32
     
     Galatians 4
    1What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. 4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir. 21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. 24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.
     

     
    1 Corinthians 13
    8. Love never fails, but whether there are prophecies (OLD COVENANT), they will fail (NEW COVENANT); whether there are tongues (OLD COVENANT), they will cease (NEW COVENANT); whether there is knowledge (KNOWLEDGE IN PART / OLD COVENANT), it will vanish away (NEW COVENANT). 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part (OLD COVENANT). 10But when that which is perfect has come (NEW COVENANT), then that which is in part will be done away (OLD COVENANT). 11When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child (OLD COVENANT); but when I became a man, I put away childish things (NEW COVENANT). 12For now we see in a mirror, dimly (OLD COVENANT), but then face to face (NEW COVENANT). Now I know in part (KNOWLEDGE IN PART / OLD COVENANT), but then I shall know just as I also am known (NEW COVENANT).
     
    Ephesians 4
    11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
     
    Luke 21
    21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    Mike Bennett


    Date: 07 Dec 2006
    Time: 11:08:22

    Mike you said…“1. There are Christians are still under the law / guardians and don't have the inheritance yet.”

    Isn’t it entirely possible that one can be freed from something, and yet imprison themselves to it again?

    Romans 6
    14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

    Mike you said “2. Tongues is still going on, and there are Christians not in the New Covenant yet. 3. Apostles, prophets and pastors still.”

    That which was on the earth as a shadow, or external show, was imperfect and “in part.”

    Hebrews 8
    1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle…

    If it was a shadow of the heavenly things, then the “law of moses” was only a shadow, and not the eternal heavenly law of God. It was a stand-in for the law of God. It was done away with, not because the law was done away with or destroyed, but because it was fully revealed. And it is revealed in the heart.

    Hebrews 8
    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    The reason that which was in part (the physical, NOT the true) was vanishing was because it was imperfect. It could not perfect the conscience, it was purely an external show. Christ must reveal the fullness to the hearts of mankind.

    So the real question is, if mankind is not “in Christ,” what are they under? Would it not be the condemnation of the true law of God? For only “in Christ” are we outside of condemnation.

    The entire point is as Hebrews says. The external “covenant” was not the point, it was the shadow or external show, and only shown “in part.” The “in part” needed to be removed, because the true Jerusalem is in the hearts of men. They are either enslaved to the old Jerusalem (the external) or they are freed being in the Heavenly Jerusalem (the internal).

    Mike you said “4. The torture of the words spoken in Luke 21:20-22, 32”

    How was the judgment universal, to include those not under the law? Did AD 70 fulfill the judgment of “the whole world” or did it represent it? This is a major issue, unless you are willing to say that all wicked men died in the war of the Jews (to include all Gentiles).

    All men were judged, and are judged, on their response to the kingdom of Christ (which is where?). The Jews rejected it for the external, so it was ground to dust.

    God Bless
    Nate


    Date: 07 Dec 2006
    Time: 11:14:02

    Mike...

    I love ya Bro. Nothing personal or at you is happening here. I am just blessed you are willing to discuss this stuff.

    Galatians 1:6
     I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from Him who called you by the grace of Christ, and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are troubling you and want to change the gospel of Christ.


    The gospel was preached to these people, but they were letting themselves be enslaved to another gospel. They were free from the law, yet were choosing to put themselves under it again.

    Galatians 2:1
     But when I saw that they were deviating from the truth of the gospel, I told Cephas in front of everyone, "If you, who are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel Gentiles to live like Jews?" 15 We are Jews by birth and not "Gentile sinners"; 16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified. 17 But if, while seeking to be justified by Christ, we ourselves are also found to be sinners, is Christ then a promoter of sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild those things that I tore down, I show myself to be a lawbreaker.


    Galatians 3:1-5
     You foolish Galatians! Who has hypnotized you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified? 2 I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so much for nothing--if in fact it was for nothing? 5 So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?

    The entire context of Galatians, not just Galatians 4, is that they were justified by faith and not the law yet they were returning to “the works of the law.” Paul spent his entire time writing this book in an attempt to get the Galatians to realize that the works of the law profit nothing because they have been freed from them “in Christ” and should no longer live under the law.

    Romans 10:4
     For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    Free men of the heavenly Jerusalem, Children of God who they can call “Abba Father,” had been turning back to the law and imprisoning themselves.

    Yes, there are many Christians today who bind themselves to it. You and I both agree that Christianity today has enslaved itself to the modern idea of “the Church.” Does this mean that they “don’t have” the inheritance? Or that they have not realized it? These Galatians were no longer “under the law” either, yet because of the existence of that which was “in part” they were tempted by their conscience, being seared from others, to once again enslave themselves to it. This is still ongoing in the hearts of men.

    God Bless
    Nate


    Date: 07 Dec 2006
    Time: 12:45:41

    Comments:

    Nate writes:
    Yes, there are many Christians today who bind themselves to it. You and I both agree that Christianity today has enslaved itself to the modern idea of “the Church.” Does this mean that they “don’t have” the inheritance?

    Nate according to your own logic this would mean that those doing that do not have the inheritance.

    6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

    10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."


    Date: 07 Dec 2006
    Time: 9:45:41

    Comments:

    Do Christians need their faith to turn to sight today?  Do Christians still grow in Christ into maturity?  Do Christians go from milk to meat anymore?  If so, then there is the answer.   If it was settled in AD70, then all Christians should be born again in full maturity, which is contrary to all evidence.


  • Date: 08 Dec 2006
    Time: 05:22:12

    Comments:

    Nate: Thanks for the good articles you have been writing. I have been blessed immensely as I study them. Please keep up the good work.

    I see a believer as having two standings before God. One is his position "in Christ" that is eternal and based on the works of Christ's alone. This has to do with his union and relationship to Christ. The other is "Christ in him" which is temporal during his physical life. This has to do with his works and fellowship with God. We must experience and practically live out who we are in this life. We do reap what we sow.

    1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Marv


    Date: 08 Dec 2006
    Time: 08:44:24

    Comments:

    I agree that there are two natures at work here; after all, our physical bodies are not "in Christ", nor is our "old man." The tensions of flesh and spirit, as demonstrated  throughout the New Testament era are still very much at work within all believers today, in my opinion.  Hence the declaration of Paul "walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh."   That is why the external realities of the first century point to internal realities today.  Clearly, the external show is entirely fulfilled and never needs repeating; however,  the old childish things (I Cor. 13) of bondage, which the Mosaic law represented, must still be put off for the sake of maturity and fullness.  Our old elements have no place within the gates of the city, as nothing that offends may enter therein.   Though some may think of wheat as 100% "good" people and tares as 100% "bad" people, we should rather see this as an internal process of purification through which we are all called to go through in Christ.  Those without  the precious Stone within are only chaff, with no seed whatsoever.  


    Date: 08 Dec 2006
    Time: 10:51:58

    Comments:

    Nate wrote:
    Free men of the heavenly Jerusalem, Children of God who they can call “Abba Father,” had been turning back to the law and imprisoning themselves.

    Nate - prior to AD 70 men were doing this. If they kept doing it after being warned then they proved themselves not to be believers but instead "believing in vain". They were never part of the heavenly Jerusalem if they "turned back". The heavenly Jerusalem was something that they had "by faith". If they would have "turned back" to the old, at the 2nd coming they would have proved themselves to have never been part of the group.

    1 Corinthians 15
    2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

    Hebrews 10
    36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
    "He who is coming will come and will not delay.
    38But my righteous one will live by faith.
    And if he shrinks back,
    I will not be pleased with him." 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

    1 John 2
    19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    You can't reconcile this, with what you are trying to say about believers today. You can't apply these verses that way Nate. Which just proves my point, that you are ripping them out of context to make your ongoing (Pret Idealist) fulfillments work. You have them in the covenant / saved / in the kingdom - but then still "shrinking back", "believing in vain", and "not of us" at times. Some of what you are saying I can agree on, but when you start taking the scriptures (prophesies etc.) out of context of the 1st century to make pret-idealism fit, it doesn't work. As I said before, these are good lessons for us today, but certainly they are not the true "fulfillments".

    Luke 21
    20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.


    Date: 07 Dec 2006
    Time: 11:08:22

    Mike,

    Thanks for your post.  It seems, though, that you are insisting Nate reconcile his applications based upon your own fundamental presuppositions.   This is like Dispensationalists insisting that full preterists reconcile "blindness has come upon Israel until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" in a satisfying way, that accords to their assumptions of an external, nationalistic Israel.
     

    You wrote: The heavenly Jerusalem was something that they had "by faith". If they would have "turned back" to the old, at the 2nd coming they would have proved themselves to have never been part of the group.


    This point is probably agreed; except that your presupposition of an external, once for all "second coming" in AD70 seems not to be Nate's assumption.  I think that a pret-idealist would tend to see the judgment of the Lord in AD66-70 as the external show of the true invisible par-ousia/essense which comes to people individually. The real ripping out of context is making the letter the focus by declaring that the manifestation of the substance is the substance itself.   Paul lays the case out that both Pharaoh and Israel were ordained to endure the judgment of God, in his manifestation of invisible things:
     
    9:17-22 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault ? For who hath resisted his will?  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to  make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if  God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory
     
    Those who were "in the covenant" were in such place since before creation.  To state that people weren't in the covenant until the natural was taken away in AD70 is quite different from saying that it wasn't revealed until as such until the natural was taken out of the way.  For anyone interested, here is a link to John Gill's "Body of Divinity" where he addresses "The Everlasting Covenant."

    "It is an "eternal" covenant; not merely as to duration, being what will continue to eternity, and so is called an everlasting covenant, but as to the original of it; it was made in eternity, and commenced and bears date from eternity. " (Properties of the Everlasting Covenant)

    I hope you can see how fundamentally Dispensationalist this tendency is in nature by saying that God's working with men was different then than it is now, as though God changed plans, as opposed to removing the shadow to fully revealing what had been the substance all along.  Also, I pray that whoever is reading will recognize the consequences this assumption has on the Word of God's ministry within believers.   When only regarding the letter of the Bible (ignoring its everlasting substance), every passage in the Bible is assigned to a fundamentally different world, and verses can only be understood when passed through the prism of "the context of full preterism".  And even after readjusting for this new context, and personal application is still only a secondary speculative usage.
     
    With love in Christ,
    TD

    Date: 08 Dec 2006
    Time: 17:55:05

    Comments:

    Todd writes:
    Those who were "in the covenant" were in such place since before creation. To state that people weren't in the covenant until the natural was taken away in AD70 is quite different from saying that it wasn't revealed until as such until the natural was taken out of the way.

    Todd you use many fancy words, but rarely do I see scripture used to support your claims. Bottom line is that we today are in a different position then the first century saints.

    No one said that these people did not or were not saved in the same way from the beginning till now.

    To have something by faith is quite different then to have it in completion. No reformed person that I know says that anyone was saved in a different way, but you and I both know that the gospel truths were not made as clear or obvious until the Christ came.

    10Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

    The traditional reformed view is that the gospel was like a flower. A closed bud in its early stages and an open one in its late stages. ie REVEALED. No one has argued against this Todd.

    The traditional reformed view is nothing close to dispensational. Dispensation teaches that men were saved in different ways. That has nothing to do woth what we are saying.

    Your attempt to connect it, as such, is nothing but a scare tactic to get people to go to your "private interpretation" just like your recnt postings about people leaving "modern preterism".

    You can not apply these verses in the same way to people today because you say that we are in the kingdom already.

    Bottom line Todd. Do you believe that we are in the kindom now? Yes or no? You seem to have been waivering to and fro at our study about this ie (physical death). Maybe because it does not fit your theology is the reason why?

    If yes, then we are in a different position then the 1st century saints.

    Your friend MB.


    Date: 08 Dec 2006
    Time: 22:58:11

    Comments:

    I absolutely believe the saints possess the kingdom -- although it is a heavenly kingdom outside of time, and not of this world.  The kingdom of Christ on earth is the kingdom within.   Certainly, though, they did not have to wait until AD70 to receive it.    What IS different about that generation, however, is the general revelation of that fact in the historical manifestation of God's purchased possession.  There are many passages which speak in past tense of saints receiving the promises prior to AD70, nullifying that obviously dispensational line. 

    I'll only post one verse, and then the full context, and then offer a different way of seeing the revelation of the Lord in AD66-70:

    Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    Translated/Methistemi - Aorist active 3rd person singular. 

    1) To place in another way: to subsititute, change
    2) To put away, remove: generally to remove from one place to another (Liddell & Scott) META as a compound often means 'change'.

    Colossians 3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: 7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; 8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.

    9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

    12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Verse 26 makes reference to "the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints", again underscoring the distinction between the chronological manifestation and the everlasting substance (as well as the pre-AD70 manifestation to the saints).   The works of the Lord do not have their nature or origin in time.. but they are "laid up in heaven" awaiting their general revelation.

    Even the passage you cited makes direct reference to the awaited events being the revealing of Jesus.   Peter makes many references.

    1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing (Apokalupsis) of Jesus Christ:

    1Pe 4:13 - But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed (Apokalupsis), ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

    To limit the appearing of the Lord to one city in the ancient world goes against the overwhelming evidence in the Bible (and Greek literature).   Please study the connection between the word parousia in the New Testament and the theophanies in the Old Testament.  The LXX even uses the same word ousia in the NT and LXX.  Also, the New Testament usage of epiphaneia is directly linked to parousia in reference to the manifestation of the Lord.  (For more information, note modern preterist Samuel Lee's Dissertation on Eusebius' Theophany, Part I) 

    Take note of the way that the coming of the Lord is spoken as more than one event throughout the scriptures... Jesus himself even referring to a ceaseless stream of revelations:

    "From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62; Lk. 22:69) - Taken from Green's 101 Verses

    It just so happens that the manifestation of the Lord against the temple was a particularly dramatic one which Moses and the prophets had foretold regarding the eschatology of their nation.  Notice this same usage in Hebrews 9:8, how the oft cited full preterist verse doesn't say that the way into the holiest of all was not opened until the first tabernacle fell, but that the way was not made manifest (Phaneroo - to make visible or known what has been hidden or unknown) until such general theophanic revelation.

    Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

    However, this was just one manifestation, not the only one.  In fact, from AD66-70 there were similar manifestations all over the Roman Empire as the Jewish nation was slaughtered in ways that even struck Josephus as providential (Wars 2.18.1 'Now the people of Cesarea had slain the Jews that were among them on the very same day and hour [when the Roman soldiers were slain], which one would think must have come to pass by the direction of Providence').

    I hope this distinction makes sense.   It is truly not the irresponsible view you may think it is, and represents a more appropriate approach to God's prophetic intent than just seeing one part and declaring it the whole, or of seeing a shadow and declaring it the substance.  

    Perhaps instead of using the old method of "what about this? what about that?" so familiar to full preterists (coming from futurists who only want to discredit the view), you could take the study to the Lord, and zero in on the fundamental distinction between "in part"/whole & shadow/substance in your own personal studies and meditations.   If you would like, I suppose I can post more verses for you, but rereading Green's 101 Verses with this distinction in mind will supply enough material for weeks of study.  

    God bless,
    todd


    Date: 09 Dec 2006
    Time: 11:05:31

    Comments:

    Todd writes:
    I absolutely believe the saints possess the kingdom -- although it is a heavenly kingdom outside of time, and not of this world. Certainly, though, they did not have to wait until AD70 to receive it. What IS different about that generation, however, is the general revelation of that fact in the historical manifestation of God's purchased possession. There are many passages which speak in past tense of saints receiving the promises prior to AD70, nullifying that obviously dispensational line. I'll only post one verse, and then the full context, and then offer a new way of seeing the theophany of the Lord in AD70:

    Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    Todd why did you leave out the surrounding Colossians Ch 1 verses?

    Colossians 1
    11being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

    Luke 21
    20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." 32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    Matthew 25
    33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

    What you are missing Todd is that when the bible uses past tense, it does not always mean that something has already happened. It means the certainty of an event to happen. This is expained in the Young's Literal Translation. This is nothing new.

    They clearly did not have the kingdom mentioned until the judgment. The kingdom was the reward. Redemption was drawing near.

    This is not a different kingdom and redemption. They did not have it yet.

    Todd quotes:
    Colossians 3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

    Todd you just made my point by quoting Colosians 3. They were still hoping for that which was "laid up in heaven".

    Romans 8
    24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

    Hebrews 11
    13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

    Above we see even the dead were still waiting for the heavenly city.

    Hebrews 11
    39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

    Both the living and the dead would be made perfect together. Being made perfect corresponds to being in the heavenly city.

    Hebrews 9
    9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

    Hebrews makes the perfect be the tabrnacle or city that they were waiting for in which the sacrifice would make the believer (dead or alive) perfect pertaining to the conscience.

    Hebrews clearly makes this perfection in regards to being in the New Jerusalem (heavenly city).

    Revelation 21
    2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

    Nobody received the city until after the judgment of Revelation 20.

    Todd you say the kingdom is not of this world.

    John 18
    36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

    I am curious to your thoughts on what this means.

    Revelation 11
    15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."


    Date: 09 Dec 2006
    Time: 14:54:12

    Comments:

    Mike, you wrote "What you are missing Todd is that when the bible uses past tense, it does not always mean that something has already happened. It means the certainty of an event to happen."

    That is a very interesting hermeneutical approach to "problem texts", that's for sure.   Doesn't that seem just a bit too convenient?  If hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son can be insisted upon meaning "will translate us in AD70" then there really is a problem here.   I don't begrudge your right to make a past tense a future tense, but I certainly wouldn't bet my life -- or everlasting life -- on that assumption.   Nor do I think many others would either.

    Again, our difference of opinion seems to boil down to one fundamental point:  The difference being the full preterist assumption that all saints were awaiting the creation of those things which wouldn't be made until AD70 vs. the view that they were earnestly desiring the manifestation of those things which were in existence since before creation.    There is really no further point to discuss but this distinction as  absolutely everything else rides on it.

    In the meantime though, consider that the bits and pieces of passages you cited about use a deductive method which involves many assumptions. Not to mention the fact that there is not one "fully preterist verse" which looks back at AD70 as the fulfillment.  This renders full preterism a system based entirely upon deduction, as was agreed upon at one of our meetings, if you'll recall.

    The bits and pieces of passages you cited about use a deductive method which involves many assumptions -- and assumes the point in question: that only one city in one corner of the ancient globe is in view.  Note also the fact that there is not one "fully preterist verse" which looks back at AD70 as the fulfillment.  This renders full preterism a system based entirely upon deduction, as was agreed upon at one of our meetings, if you'll recall. 

    On the other hand, though, there are many "fully preterist verses" which look to their own day (prior to AD70) as enjoying the fulness of the new heavens and earth related realities.  Here are just a few that are close at hand (meaning proximity, not chronology):

    • 2 Cor 5:17  "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (cf. Rev. 21)

    • Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    • Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    • Romans 10:4  "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

    • Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us"

    • Ga 5:1  Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    • 2Co 1:9    But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us

    • 2Co 5:18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation

    • Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    • Eph 1:22  And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

    • Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

    • Eph 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    • Eph 2:5   Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

    • Col 2:13   And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

    • Ro 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it

    There are many more (even going back to "David's tabernacle" and beyond) but this will suffice to show how the reality was already being received by the people of God.

    Perhaps it would be helpful to consider if where statements are made regarding the future are referring to other considerations besides AD70

    First of all, there are those which look forward to the awakening of those who were not yet reconciled.  Second of all, there are those which look forward to the manifestation of the judgment that has already been given, which would be to their rescue (al a Lk. 21:17).  You say I proved your point by focusing on "laid up in heaven", but my point is that this proves that the previously existing reality was already in existence.   Considering the massive amount of persecution they were under by the false sons of God, I'm sure you can understand their earnest expectation for the manifestation of the true sons of God in the fall of the temple system.  Again, this is a matter where my conclusions are being judged by your presuppositions, which (as you know from your discussions with dispensationalists) is not at all profitable.  Another consideration is that some passages which are taken in a chronological sense of history are actually intended in the spatial sense of proximity.

    It is my hope and prayer those who are not as absolutely determined to defend "full preterism" against all comers will be able to use this discussion to look at the Word of God as speaking directly to their hearts.  No matter how settled we may find our doctrine, unless it reaches deep within for rest in Christ then it is unprofitable.     All the questions and critical arguments are profitable if charitable, though.. yet are more suited for a discussion board, so if you'd like we can relocate to the Discussion board for further inquiry in the "Questions about Preterist Idealism" section. 

    with prayers for openness,
    todd


    Date: 09 Dec 2006
    Time: 16:20:11

    Comments:

    Mike,

    There are fundamental differences to what you believe was happening in AD 70 and what I believe was happening. As I have stated previously, the thing on earth, being the “copy and shadow, only represented the true fullness of those things for which they stood. This was also Paul's perspective. Paul did not speak this way to all people, however it was exercised in Hebrews more because a nation of people being rooted in that shadow needed, above all others, a revelation of release from it.

    Paul went through great length to discuss the deity of Christ, through whom the world was made, and to whom everything pointed. When he had discussed Christ, His ministry, and the fathers of the faith who were also instrumental in the old covenant. But this is NOT how Paul leaves this. As I posted before…

    Hebrews 8
    1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things,

    This is the crux of everything we discuss, and if this issue is not at least understood, we will be as brothers pounding our heads against a wall. As when I went from futurist views to preterist views, I have gone from the AD 70 = all is accomplished view to an “AD 70 is a sign to the world of the eternal tribulation, judgment and salvation of those who ‘confess with their [your] mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in their heart that God raised them from the dead, they [you] will be saved…”

    This is not a new assumption, but a paradigm shift. Before I would look at all verses and see those that related to AD 70, and which could point beyond. Separating some as “for today” and others as “finished.” Thus limiting God’s scope for those verses to what was only the “copy,” and not applying them to the substance (the eternal and heavenly truth) that the copy was supposed to reveal.

    I know you ask about the Pentecost, baptism, communion, pastors. I hold nothing “in part” to be in continuance by man, however they are being done eternally in the person of Christ! Which is a different than I had been believing before. I put them at an end with the destruction of the COPY, and now I see them as being consummated in fullness with the revealing of the SUBSTANCE to the individual today, and always.

    There is a reason that every aspect of the parousia was discussed as a “revelation” or “glorification.” The other interesting thing about this view is that beginning with my writing to Ed, I had been seeing that the salvation was primarily a revelation. There were absolutely some physical benefits to that, but the parousia is best understood in revelation, and the resulting glorification. Somehow this parousia has to be understood for the individual today. Do we not believe that the revelation of Christ is still ongoing today? If so, what would make more sense…

    1. That the individual experiencing that revelation today had already been saved in an AD 70 destruction of that which was only a copy…

    or

    2. That the individual is brought from the old and into the new at the point of the revelation of the substance, as the copy destroyed in AD 70 acted out for us in history?

    Here are some verses on what they were waiting for.

    Rom 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

    Is this really AD 70 only? Or did AD 70 just serve as a revelation to the world that this is true?

    Did He “render each one” in AD 70? Including you and me? Or DOES HE render? Therefore AD 70 being a revelation of the true substance.

    1 Cor 1:7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Is everyone who will be a Christian today, already, even before they receive a revelation “blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Which Paul here lists as the same day in which Christ is [was] revealed…AD 70? Or are those who are currently being saved, because Christ is revealed in their hearts becoming “blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ?” Wasn’t what happened in AD 70 a revelation that this is the way it works “In Christ?

    God Bless
    Nate


    Date: 09 Dec 2006
    Time: 16:20:11

    Comments:

    Todd would you mind defining the "first fruits", and "first resurrection" and the "1000 years" in Revelation 20 for me? Thanks. If you would rather, just email it to me since I know you would like to take this somewhere else. I thank you for posting these for me in here, because I know you have to edit and space the words etc.

    Todd writes:
    That is a very interesting hermeneutical approach to "problem texts", that's for sure. Doesn't that seem just a bit too convenient? If hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son can be insisted upon meaning "will translate us in AD70" then there really is a problem here.

    Todd it is not a problem. I get the answer from experts, as I said before. Here is an excerpt and a link to the Young's Literal Bible article about it.

    Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible
    by Robert Young Author of the Analytical Concordance to the Bible
    http://www.ccel.org/bible/ylt/ylt.htm

    "That the Hebrews were in the habit of using the past tense to express the certainty of an action taking place, even though the action might not really be performed for some time. And that the Hebrews, in referring to events which might be either past or future were accustomed to act on the principle of transferring themselves mentally to the period and place of the events themselves, and were not content with coldly viewing them as those of a bygone or still coming time; hence the very frequent use of the present tense."

     


    Date: 10 Dec 2006
    Time: 9:11:22

    Comments:

    You may not think it is a problem, but to my way of thinking changing celebratory past and present-tense references into longing hopes for the future is actually quite a thin pretence upon which to build an entire doctrinal system.    That view insists that in every case in the New Testament where the present substance was joyously celebrated, the author actually was only looking to a period beyond AD70.

    Though Paul seems not to have survived until the manifestation of that substance in AD70, he was certainly rejoicing in the substance of the prophetic reality.   The reality was already in total substance, "laid up in heaven" being revealed to people as God saw fit (cf. Matt. 26:64).   The fall of the nation in AD70 was a dramatic manifestation of the substance, but it was not the substance itself -- nor by any stretch the only manifestation, being only an external show in history of an internal reality in Christ.   "the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints"   Therefore, the revelation in history is the secondary show of the substance in Christ, and is not the substance itself (Heb. 8:1-5).   This is why Hebrews would speak of it as a present reality -- because it was!  

    That which was not present was the historical manifestation of the everlasting realities.    Those with faith, like Abraham and David, are not subject to that which is in part (Ps 51: thou delightest not in sacrifice; else would I give it), having already laid hold of the substance.   The same holds true for us in our lives, as God manifests to us in our internal/personal circumstances, the same substance He revealed to the Jews in their external/national circumstances.  Without faith (even today), it is impossible to please Him.   We mustn't limit the Word of God to time and place.

    What is being fundamentally presented in this series of articles (it seems to me) is that all things were realities, whether they had been manifested or not... and that what full preterist systems say must be accomplished in the first century pret-idealist systems say simply waited to be manifested then.   This is a fundamental difference of approach, with countless critical consequences.

    blessings,
    todd 


    Date: 10 Dec 2006
    Time: 14:36:48

    Comments:

    Todd writes:
    That which was not present was the historical manifestation of the everlasting realities

    Idealist word games. They want to think they could already enter in to the presence of God, but just struggled with the idea (Hebrews 9). Other scriptures that tell us about the same event tell us otherwise.

    Revelation 15
    5After this I looked and in heaven the temple, that is, the tabernacle of the Testimony, was opened. 6Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. 7Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

    As a friend put it recently...

    The passage says no one could enter until the wrath was fulfilled. Yet you have everyone entering. So why the need for this passage? Preterist Idealism sounds nice, but unfortunately it is becoming more and more evident that it reduces redemptive history to a cartoon of sorts...a metaphor, ...really, redemptive history becomes an allegory, just an allegory. It would be better termed, Allegorical Preterism, because that is what it really is. You have made the cross, resurrection, and parousia merely allegorical events that tell what already happened, not as necessary redemptive events. Again, I would argue that it is a reduction of redemption. The Bible says: If Christ is not raised, you are dead in your sins.


    Date: 10 Dec 2006
    Time: 21:11:32

    Comments:

    I disagree with the characterization, but that's okay.   The natural events are certainly not only allegories.  However, they are revelations of realities that reach deep into our lives, such as : And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

    Thanks for posting!

    blessings,
    todd


    Date: 04 Jun 2007
    Time: 10:41:31

    Comments:

    I am not quite sure what all you are getting it but I hope I am. This has alot of comments and i just wnat to say that if they were not of us because they walked away the that meant they didn't belong anyway. They were not converted in their heart.


    Date: 14 Nov 2007
    Time: 11:03:22

    Comments:

    And praise the Lord for that!   We should be much more careful before throwing away 2,000 years of Christian history, as though it was somehow misguided!  Imagine...


    Date: 12 Jul 2009
    Time: 04:52:22

    Your Comments:

    Ultimately, the "little horn" and "Beast" are Satan working with and through the sinful nature of man, whoever those men are, whether Rome, or Nero, or those Particular Jews involved. Paul says this is true of all in Ephesians 2:2 "Wherein in time past, ye walked according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience." So ultimately, the "beast" and "little horn" are a picture of the sinful nature at work. Therefore,beyond those things that happened historically, the destruction of these is a picture of the inward work of salvation wrought by Jesus Christ: "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24), and "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be the Spirit of God dwell in you" (Rom. 8:9) and "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature: old things are passed away, behold, all things are made new." The destruction of these enemies of God is true for us in the sense that we ourselves were the "enemies of God," and our "old selves" were destroyed by faith in Christ.

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