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AD70 Dispensationalism: According to that view, AD70 was the end of 'this age' and the start of the 'age to come'.    Those who lived before AD70 could only 'see in part' and such, lacking the resurrection and redemptive blessings which supposedly came only when Herod's Temple in Jerusalem fell.    Accordingly, AD70 was not only the end of Old Testament Judaism, but it was also the end of the revelation of Christianity as seen in the New Testament.

HYPER PRETERISM

"Full preterist" material is being archived for balanced representation of all preterist views, but is classified under the theological term hyper (as in beyond the acceptable range of tolerable doctrines) at this website.  The classification of all full preterism as Hyper Preterism (HyP) is built upon well over a decade of intense research at PreteristArchive.com, and the convictions of the website curator (a former full preterist pastor).  The HyP theology of final resurrection and consummation in the fall of Jerusalem, with its dispensational line in AD70 (end of old age, start of new age), has never been known among authors through nearly 20 centuries of Christianity leading up to 1845, when the earliest known full preterist book was written.  Even though there may be many secondary points of agreement between Historical/Modern Preterism and Hyper Preterism, their premises are undeniably and fundamentally different.

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING MATERIAL HAS BEEN CLASSIFIED AS "HYPER PRETERIST"


 

DISTINCTLY FULLPRET POSITIONS IN THIS ARTICLE:

  • Second and Only Coming at AD70

  • Final Judgment in AD70

  • Final Resurrection in AD70


 

Systematic Hyper Preterism
(aka "Full Preterism")



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Jesus: "It is finished" (AD30)
cf. Hebrews 10:19-22

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Hyper Preterism: Defining "Hyper Preterism"- Criticisms from the Inside - Criticisms from the Outside || Progressive Pret | Regressive Pret | Former Full Preterists | Pret Scholars | Normative Pret | Reformed Pret | Pret Idealism | Pret Universalism

William Bell
Max King
Don Preston
Larry Siegle
Kurt Simmons
Ed Stevens
 

SOME DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES OF SYSTEMATIZED HYPER PRETERISM

It is important to keep in mind that many ideas and doctrines full preterism appeals to - such as the complete end of the Old Covenant world in AD70 - are by no means distinctive to that view.   Many non HyPs believe this as well, so one need not embrace the Hyper Preterist system in order to endorse this view.   Following are exceptional doctrines which, so far as I've seen, are only taught by adherents of Hyper Preterism.:

DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES TAUGHT BY STANDARD FULL PRETERISM

  • All Bible Prophecy was Fulfilled By AD70

  • Atonement Incomplete at Cross ; Complete at AD70

  • The Supernatural Power of Evil Ended in AD70

  • The Spirit of Antichrist was Destroyed in AD70

  • "The Consummation of the Ages" Came in AD70

  • "The Millennium" is in the Past, From AD30 to AD70

  • Nothing to be Resurrected From in Post AD70 World ; Hades Destroyed

  • The Christian Age Began in AD70 ; Earth Will Never End

  • "The Day of the Lord" was Israel's Destruction ending in AD70

  • The "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ Took Place in AD70-ish

  • The Great Judgment took place in AD70 ; No Future Judgment

  • The Law, Death, Sin, Devil, Hades, etc. Utterly Defeated in AD70

  • "The Resurrection" of the Dead and Living is Past, Having Taken Place in AD70

  • The Context of the Entire Bible is Pre-AD70 ; Not Written To Post AD70 World

DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES TAUGHT BY VARIOUS FORMS
(under construction)

  • Baptism was for Pre-AD70 Era (Cessationism)

  • The Lord's Prayer was for Pre-AD70 Era (Cessationism)

  • The Lord's Supper was for Pre-AD70 Era (Cessationism)

  • The Holy Spirit's Paraclete Work Ceased in AD70 (Cessationism)

  • The Consummation in AD70 Caused Church Offices to Cease (Cessationism)

  • The Resurrection in AD70 Changed the "Constitutional Principle" of Marriage (Noyesism)

  • Israel and Humanity Delivered into Ultimate Liberty in AD70 (TransmillennialismTM)

  • The Judgment in AD70 Reconciled All of Mankind to God ; All Saved (Preterist Universalism)

  • Adam's Sin No Longer Imputed in Post AD70 World ; No Need to be Born Again (Preterist Universalism)

  • When Jesus Delivered the Kingdom to the Father in AD70, He Ceased Being The Intermediary (Pantelism/Comprehensive Grace?)

  • The Book of Genesis is an Apocalypse; is About Creation of First Covenant Man, not First Historical Man (Covenantal Preterism)

 

The Apostle Who Remained

By Jim Gunter
(10/12/2004)


In the Gospel of John, chapter 21, Vv 18-23, the apostle gives us a rare and brief autobiographic moment with the risen Saviour and fellow-apostle, Peter. Here, John is following along behind them as Jesus has just signified to Peter by what kind of death he (Peter) would glorify God (vv 18,19). As Jesus then directs Peter to, "Follow me," Peter turns around, sees John following, and then asks his Lord, "And what about this man?" (vv 20,21) The Lord gives Peter a most interesting answer to his question: He says in vs. 22, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow Me!" Now let me say to you that there was a time in the past, when I understood this account as a sort of light-hearted moment; not really taking Jesus seriously, but thinking that maybe He was, in effect, simply telling Peter to just mind his own business and not concern himself with such trivial things but to just pay attention to Him!  And, among most of the other disciples I knew, they, too, seemed to take a similar view of this.  So, what about you?  Had you ever given this much thought?   Just what are we to think about this incident? Well, according to vs. 23, there was a saying that went out among the followers of Jesus that He was telling Peter that John would not die!  However, John quickly dispels that rumor;  he simply repeats to his readers that The Lord told Peter only that if He WANTED John to REMAIN UNTIL HE COMES, what is that to him.

Now folks, I don't know just how you understand this account.  However, in light of the fact that a misunderstanding of these words from The Master precipitated this erroneous saying among the followers of Jesus, it seems to me that this would be cause for a serious consideration, or perhaps re-consideration of that statement's meaning.  So, for that reason, and because Jesus, no where else, engaged in idle or meaningless chatter, it certainly stoked my interest, and caused me to take a deeper look into these words of our Lord.

And so, after reconsidering these words in the light of so many other passages which also speak of the COMING of Jesus, my thinking has undergone a metamorphosis.  Beloved, after I finish laying out what my present understanding of this passage is, it may be that you disagree with me, and that's fine!  And you may even find my understanding to be strange! Well, that's fine too!  But, what I now see in view here, is exactly what Jesus expressed to Peter; that John would indeed REMAIN UNTIL HE RETURNED!

Now, this is not to say that I believe there's a 2,000 year old apostle walking around among us today!   What it means is that my understanding of the "time-frame" of Jesus' "return" has changed. Of course, we are speaking of His "Parousia" (Greek for presence, coming, or arrival), or as many express it; "the second-coming" of Jesus!   I had always viewed His Parousia to still be in "our" future, just as many other believers also do.   However, upon  consideration of many of the passages which speak of His "Parousia," I now see it as NOT in "our" future, but in the "near" future of those disciples in the 1st century. As I continue to study the New Covenant Scriptures, I become increasingly aware that the expectations of those 1st century  disciples to whom Jesus spoke, and those to whom the apostles wrote, were the expectations of an IMMINENT coming or return of The Lord; a coming which would occur in THEIR generation, which was during those "last days" of The Old Covenant Age!  And so now, after immersing myself, for sometime now,  in the study of Bible eschatology, I am now persuaded that the occurrence of this monumental, world-changing event is in our past, having occurred along with "the fall of Jerusalem" in 70. A.D.  Yes, I believe that when Jerusalem fell, there was much, much more that took place than simply the destruction of Jerusalem.  

Beloved, I realize that this may sound very strange to some of you, for once it would have sounded strange to me as well.  It would seem strange because a serious student of our Father's Word understands that if His "coming, or presence" has already occurred, then so have "The Resurrection and The Judgment," seeing that the occurrence of all three of these events are inextricably connected.  And it is such passages as Matthew 10:23 that really grab my attention!  Here Jesus said to His disciples:  "But whenever they persecute you in this city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, UNTIL THE SON OF MAN COMES."  Folks, do you see what I mean?  I certainly would not understand our Lord to be saying here that it would be disciples in the 21st century who should expect this.  Surely, we can see a 1st century context in those words!  And now, please consider this:  Our Lord also said this to His apostles in Matthew 16:27-28:  "For the Son of Man is 'going to' (Greek--about to) COME in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then RECOMPENSE EVERY MAN according to his deeds.  Truly I say to you, there be some of those STANDING HERE, which SHALL NOT TASTE OF DEATH until they see the Son of Man COMING IN HIS KINGDOM." 

Yes, beloved, it's for the reason of such passages as this, that I now have a different view of those words of Jesus to Peter about John "remaining" till He comes!

I find this passage we just read to be quite revealing:  First of all, He is personally speaking to His disciples of His "parousia."  And, He says that when He comes, He is going to "recompense every man according to his deeds." Obviously, Jesus is speaking of The Judgment here!  And, The Judgment, of course, would necessitate "The Resurrection."  Then He declares that some of those to whom He was speaking (which would include John) would NOT "taste of death" (die physically) before seeing Him at His "parousia."  And I believe that John would have been one of those who DID live to see Him when He returned!  You may recall the words of the Hebrew scribe, who wrote his epistle in about 65 A.D..  In Heb.9:28, he wrote to those 1st century disciples who were "eagerly awaiting His coming!"  And, of this "coming," he said that it would be a "second" appearing of Christ, and that this coming would NOT be "with reference to SIN," as His "first" coming was.  But this "second" COMING would be "for salvation."   Yes, it would be just like Jesus Himself had declared when preparing His apostles for the fall of Jerusalem, the temple, and the world of Judaism in Lk.21:28.  He said:  "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because YOUR REDEMPTION IS DRAWING NEAR."  Folks, I understand their redemption to have been drawing near at that time because it was then, that all those things which stood in the way of the Old Covenant Age completely passing away, would be removed.  Then there "salvation" would be completely consummated.  I believe that this is why Paul told the saints at Rome: "For salvation is nearer to us NOW that when we first believed.  The night is far gone; the day IS AT HAND." (Rom.13:11).  Isn't that marvelous?  Can't you just hear the excitement in Paul's pen and see the joy across his face!! Folks, please read also 1Pet.1:5; Heb.8:13; Heb.9:8!

 The following are just a few more of the passages that, when all considered, are so persuasive to me that John did indeed "remain till the coming or Parousia of Jesus":

(1)  Mal.3:1,2,5--The sending of John The Baptist before the "great day of  Judgment!"

"Behold, I am going to send My messenger (John The Baptist--JG), and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, WILL SUDDENLY COME TO HIS TEMPLE; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, HE IS COMING says the Lord of hosts. But who can endure THE DAY OF HIS COMING? And who can stand WHEN HE APPEARS? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap...Then I will draw near to you FOR JUDGMENT; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers etc.."

(2) Mal.4:1,5,6-- More on this great Judgment of God on His own people, Israel:

"For behold, THE DAY IS COMING, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and THE DAY THAT IS COMING will set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them NEITHER ROOT NOR BRANCH...Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet (John The Baptist--JG) before THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD...And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

(3)  Ax.2:16-21--During the "last days of The Old Covenant Age, Peter's quoting of Joel 2:28-32 to verify his message to those on Pentecost:

"And it shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS, God says, that I will pour forth of My Spirit...And I will grant wonders in the sky above, and signs on the earth beneath, blood and fire, and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME. And it shall be, that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."  It's very interesting here, that in the same "last days" in which Joel prophesied "the pouring out of God's Spirit (Pentecost)," he also prophesied that great fall of Jerusalem and God's Judgment!  Please see the use of the same colorful, prophetic language in Is. 19 concerning God's judgment on Babylon in 538 B.C. as He used the Medes to execute His judgment on them.

(4)  Mat.3:7--John The Baptist to the Jewish rulers:

"You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come." (Young's Literal Trans.)

(5)  Mat.10:23--Jesus to the apostles, sent out to preach the Gospel of The coming Kingdom:

"But whenever they persecute you in this city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, YOU SHALL NOT FINISH GOING THROUGH THE CITIES OF ISRAEL, UNTIL THE SON OF MAN COMES."  Please compare this with  Mat.24:14

(6)  Mat.16:27,28--Jesus to His apostles:

"For the Son of Man IS ABOUT TO COME (Young's Lit. Trans) in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are SOME OF THOSE WHO ARE STANDING HERE, who shall not taste of death UNTIL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM." Another interesting side-note:  Some have attempted to explain this as Jesus' appearing on the "Mount of Transfiguration."  However, since the incident on the "Mount of Transfiguration" took place only five or six days after Jesus spoke those words, it would seem quite senseless, at least in my view, for Him to tell them that some of them would still be alive five or six days later.  Beloved,  really, how could there possibly be any significance in that?  I just cannot even fathom our Lord speaking in those terms!  Another reason why I would have to reject that notion is because on the "Mount of Transfiguration, Jesus did NOT come with any angels, and
neither was there Judgment meted out to anyone.  Therefore, my dear friends, I really don't see any basis for such an explanation as that!

(7)   Mat.23:32-36--Jesus to the Jewish rulers for the murdering of the prophets:

Jesus told them to fill up then, the measure of your fathers, so that ON YOU MAY COME ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED ON EARTH, FROM THE BLOOD OF INNOCENT Abel to the blood of Zechariah.  Truly, I say TO YOU, all these things will come upon THIS GENERATION."

(8)   Mat.24:34--Jesus to His apostles regarding the coming judgment on Israel, prophesied by Joel in Joel 2:28-32:

"Truly I say to you, THIS GENERATION WILL NOT PASS AWAY until all these things take place."  Some have argued that "generation" simply means "race," and so they reason that Jesus is simply saying that the Jewish "race" would not pass away till these thing take place.  Beloved, in the New Covenant Scriptures, the word "generation" (Greek---genea) is used some 36 times. And if one would only take a simple concordance and look at all of the other
35 verses where the word is employed, one will learn that it is NEVER used to indicate a "race" of people.  So, if "genea" is NOT used in the other 35 verses to indicate "race," then why should it suddenly come to mean "race" in this one verse?   Linguists tell us that the word "genea" is indicative of all the people living in the same period of time.  The Greek word for a "race" or "nation" of people is shown to be "genos"

(9)  Ax.17:31-- Paul to the Athenians in the Areopagus:

"...because He (God) has fixed a day in which He IS ABOUT TO (Young's Lit. Trans.) judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

(10)  Ax.24:15,25-- Paul before the governor, Felix:

"...having a hope in God which these men cherish themselves that there IS ABOUT TO BE (Young's Lit. Trans.) a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked...And as he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the Judgment ABOUT TO BE (Young's Lit. Trans.), Felix became frightened and said, 'Go away for the present, and when I find time, I will summon you'" Just a logical question here: Would Felix have become so frightened (The KJV even uses the word trembled) if this Judgment was to be 2,000 years down the way?

(11)  Rom.8:18-- Paul to the disciples at Rome:

"For I consider that the sufferings of THIS PRESENT TIME are not worthy to be compared with the glory that IS ABOUT TO BE (Young's Lit. Trans.) revealed in us."

(12)  Rom.13:11,12--Again, Paul to the disciples at Rome:

"...IT IS ALREADY THE HOUR for you to awaken from sleep; for NOW salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is ALMOST GONE, and the day IS AT HAND. Let us therefore lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light."

(13)  1Cor.1:7,8--Paul to the disciples at Corinth:

"...so that you are not lacking in any gift, AWAITING EAGERLY THE REVELATION OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who shall also confirm you TO THE END, blameless in the DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST." Please take note that Paul did NOT say that Jesus would confirm them TILL THEIR DEATH, but rather UNTIL HIS REVELATION!

(14)  Phil.1:6,10--Paul to the disciples at Philippi:

"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it UNTIL THE DAY OF CHRIST JESUS...so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless UNTIL THE DAY OF CHRIST." It's interesting that, again, Paul speaks here of the good work that God had begun in them and that Paul was confident God would continue to do so, NOT until their "death" but rather until THE DAY OF CHRIST JESUS! Same thing regarding their "being sincere and blameless"; it would be until the soon to come, "DAY OF CHRIST JESUS."

(15)  Phil.3:20--Again, Paul to the Philippians:

"For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also WE EAGERLY WAIT for the Savior; the Lord Jesus Christ" In this passage,  it seems that the apostle Paul, at this point in time, even considered the possibility that he might be among those still living at Christ's coming.

(16)  1Thes.1:9,10--Paul to those in Christ of the Thessalonians:

"...and how YOU turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and TO WAIT FOR HIS SON FROM HEAVEN, who He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath ABOUT TO COME. (Young's Lit. trans.)"

(17)  1Thes.4:15--Again, Paul to those in Christ of the Thessalonians:

"...that WE who are alive, and remain UNTIL THE COMING OF THE LORD, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep." Here, still, Paul considers the possibility that he might be among those still alive at Christ's coming!

(18)  1Thes.5:23--Again, Paul to those Christians at Thessalonica:

"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your SPIRIT and SOUL, and BODY be preserved complete, without blame AT THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST." Please note that Paul says that not only their "spirit and soul" be preserved complete until the Lord's coming, but also their BODIES as well!  Isn't that remarkable?  But how could there "bodies" be preserved complete unless the Lord's coming was imminent?

(19)  1Tim.6:14-- Paul to Timothy:

"...that YOU keep the commandment without stain or reproach UNTIL THE APPEARING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST." Clearly here, Paul expected Timothy to be among the living when Jesus returned!

(20)  2Tim.4:1--Paul to Timothy:

"I solemnly charge YOU (Timothy) in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is ABOUT TO JUDGE (Young's Lit. Trans.) the living and the dead, and BY HIS APPEARING AND HIS KINGDOM."

(21)  Tit.2:13--Paul to Titus:

"...LOOKING FOR the blessed hope and THE APPEARING OF THE GLORY OF OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR, CHRIST JESUS."

(22)  Heb.10:27--The Hebrew scribe to Jewish Christians of the 1st century:

"For yet IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, He who is coming, will come, and WILL NOT DELAY."

(23)  Jas.5:8,9--James to the dispersed Jewish disciples scattered abroad, who were being greatly persecuted by the Judaizers:

"You too, be patient; strengthen your hearts, for THE COMING OF THE LORD IS AT HAND. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, that you yourselves may not be judged; Behold, The Judge IS STANDING RIGHT AT THE DOOR."

(24)  1Pet.4:5--Peter also to Jewish disciples scattered over the land:

"...but they shall give account to Him WHO IS READY to judge the living and the dead."

(25)  1Pet.4:7--Peter again to the Diaspora:

"THE END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer."

(26)  1Pet.4:17--Peter, once more to the Diaspora:

"For IT IS TIME FOR 'THE' (the definite article "the" IS in the original text) JUDGMENT TO BEGIN with the household of God (Israel--JG)..."

(27)  Rev.1:1--The apostle John was shown that those things being revealed to him in The Apocalypse were ALL:

"things which WOULD SHORTLY TAKE PLACE.  Here, John admonishes those 1st century disciples to:

".heed the things which are written in it; FOR THE TIME IS NEAR (Vs.3).

(28)  Rev.2:16--To the church at Pergamum, John was instructed to write:

"Repent therefore; or else I AM COMING QUICKLY..."

(29)  Rev.2:25--To the church at Thyatira, John was told to write:

"...Hold fast UNTIL I COME."

(30)  Rev.3:10,11--To the church at Philadelphia, he was instructed to write:

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is ABOUT TO COME upon the whole world (land) to test those who dwell upon the earth (land). I AM COMING QUICKLY; hold fast what you have, in order that no one take your crown."

(31)  Rev.22:6,7--John wrote that:

"These words are faithful and true; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants, the things WHICH MUST SHORTLY TAKE PLACE. And behold, I AM COMING QUICKLY."

(32)  Rev.22:10--John was warned by the angel:

"Do NOT seal up the words of the prophecy of this book; FOR THE TIME IS NEAR."

(33)  Rev.22:12--John was told to write:

"Behold, I AM COMING QUICKLY!"

(34)  Rev.22:20--And finally, John testified that Jesus said, "Yes, I AM COMING QUICKLY."

My dear friends, if you followed, very carefully, all the many warnings in Revelation, by both the angel and also The Lord Jesus Himself, you certainly would have taken notice of one inescapable fact and that is the thunderous sound of "imminence" of our Lord's coming.  With the many expressions such as: "Things that must soon take place; the time is at hand; behold, I am coming quickly," how could we see the many expressions like that, and yet come away with the understanding that they are things that are yet 20 centuries into their future?  Let's suppose for just a moment that Jesus definitely wanted the 1st century readers of the Apocalypse to understand that His coming was imminent; that He was even going to come in their generation.  What sort of things do you suppose He could say so as to best convey that message?  Well, I would think that an expression such as: "These are things that must shortly come to pass" would be good.  Surely, He could say: "The time is at hand, or near!"  Or, He could even say: "Behold I am coming quickly!"  My dear brethren, please don't think that I am trying to be a "wise-guy" here!  I'm only pleading that we allow His Word to simply interpret itself!  That's all!

And so, these are just a few of the many passages that are so persuasive to me, as to the "when" regarding the "Parousia" of our Lord. And after your consideration of these Scriptures I have posited, I truly hope that you can see the reason for my understanding of Jesus' words to Peter; that he would remain until his Master returned!  Yes, I truly believe that John was indeed, the apostle who remained!

May the Lord richly bless you, and give you grace and peace in your believing.


Date:

13 Oct 2004

Time:

19:59:02

Comments

The author's remarks in paragraph (27) C. above demonstrate again how preterists are forced to play word games with the NT text because of their failure to understand that 1) the little world of tiny Israel and 2) the big world around it were separate creations, with separate calendars, and separate covenantal relationships with God, and that, therefore, the first-century spiritual delivery of Israel was separate from, and earlier than, the first-century spiritual delivery of the world.


Date:

14 Oct 2004

Time:

11:31:44

Comments

To 13 October TIME: 19:59:02 You're certainly not "playing word games." You sit in stubborn blindness refusing to even see the word. None are so blind as those who will not see. This is a great article from someone who has been enlightened by the Spirit of God. We value that.


Date:

14 Oct 2004

Time:

14:39:09

Comments

Terrific summary! I think I'll print several copies and keep them handy in my bible case. Good Job, Jim! May God richly bless you in your pursuit of truth. Cliff Miller Fort Payne, AL mcliffjulie@bellsouth.net


Date:

15 Oct 2004

Time:

07:45:45

Comments

Jim, it is always great to see someone come to their own convictions about these matters. This is a great study. I pray that God continues to enlighten all of us. Eric Fugett, todaystheophilus@comcast.net


Date:

15 Oct 2004

Time:

16:35:47

Comments

To the writer of the October 14 / 11:31:44 comments: What is offensive about the belief that 2,000 years ago the two different creations, the old, natural Israel and the old, natural world, were BOTH spiritually enslaved by Satan's agents on the earth -- in the case of the nation of Israel by the satanic religious leaders in Jerusalem (Jn. 8:44), who had usurped the seat of Moses (Mt. 23:2), and in the case of all the nations of the world by the satanic political leaders in Rome, who, THROUGH THE WORLDWIDE ENFORCEMENT OF THE BLASPHEMY OF EMPEROR WORSHIP, had usurped the seat of God (2 Thes. 2:4). Preterists are either unaware of the fact, or unconcerned by the fact, that the first-century Roman emperors claimed to be God.


Date:

16 Oct 2004

Time:

10:14:22

Comments

As for "stubborn blindness," it's traditional preterists who are stubbornly blind to the fact that the NT is based entirely on the spiritual fulfillment of OT types (they have to reject that fact because it destroys their erroneous view of the first century). When the NT speaks of Christ coming in the clouds with judgment and resurrection, it should be obvious to anyone with spiritual vision that those spiritual events fulfilled the typifying universal flood, which came with typifying clouds, and typifying judgment for the ungodly, and the typifying resurrection of Noah and his family, the typifying faithful remnant of the pre-flood world. AND equally obvious that just as the typifying flood came on the last day of a typifying 100-year period (Noah aging from 500 to 600), described as THIS GENERATION in Gen. 7:1, Christ's fulfillment parousia had to come, and did come, on the last day (Mt. 24:36) of a fulfillment 100-year period, namely, the true first century, the 100 years from the birth of Christ, God's true King, in autumn of 5 BC to the death of Domitian, Satan's false king, in autumn of AD 96, the 100 years described as THIS GENERATION in Mt. 24:34.


Date:

17 Oct 2004

Time:

08:59:10

Comments

The great outrage gleefully and repeatedly perpetrated by traditional preterists is their exaltation of the destruction of Jerusalem at the expense of the resurrection of Christ - a bad habit picked up from the spiritually challenged preterist writers of a century or two ago. With their cult-like devotion to the uninspired writings of Josephus, traditional preterists make the highly offensive claims that in autumn of AD 70 Titus, the son of the Roman emperor, opened the gates of heaven, and broke the terrible yoke of the law of Moses, and made possible the appearance of New Covenant Israel, all through mere natural means, namely, the military might of the first century's sole superpower. In fact, however, those three momentous blessings for the human race occurred through supernatural means in the moment of the resurrection of Christ, the Son of God, in the spring of AD 30.


Date:

17 Oct 2004

Time:

11:12:30

Comments

Open your eyes, please. Josephus isn't quoted ONCE or even mentioned in this article. Just a whole bunch of straight-forward Scripture. You just don't like what the Scripture says, admit it. Don't you WISH the Bible taught Futurism more plainly? You bad-mouthed Jim, yet you quoted no Scripture to support your position. I challenge you and any nay-sayers to post ONE SINGLE VERSE which teaches fulfillment in a 2,000 year future generation... Or even the NEXT generation. Go ahead, Mr. and Mrs. Smug. Give it a shot. We'll see you again when you realize you're a Preterist.


Date:

17 Oct 2004

Time:

13:16:22

Comments

Who said anything about Christ's parousia still being in the future? My three comments referred to its occurrence in autumn of AD 96, in the day and hour of the death of Domitian. Traditional preterists (AD 70 preterists) actually are futurists with respect to the three momentous events listed in my third comment above, i.e., they (sadly and erroneously) believe they were brought about in AD 70 through earthly and natural means when, in fact, they were brought about 40 years earlier through heavenly and spritual means. In the OT judgment and destruction were simultaneous but in the NT judgment is separated from destruction by an intervening period of God's GRACE. The old, Christ-rejecting, natural Israel was spiritually judged in the moment of Christ's resurrection in the spring of AD 30 and destroyed in autumn of AD 70 after 40 years of GRACE. The old, Christ-rejecting, natural world was spiritually judged in the moment of Christ's parousia in autumn of AD 96 and will be destroyed at the end of this present, symbolically described "thousand years" of GRACE. Traditional preterists have an OT mind=set; they haven't grasped the NT concept of grace.


Date:

17 Oct 2004

Time:

13:51:25

Comments

The remaining future fulfillemnt involving the destruction of the world (the natural, unregenerate offspring of Adam and all of their natural institutions) is shown by Paul's words in 2 Cor. 4:18 -- all merely natural things are temporary; only spiritual things are eternal. That's why the "all things" made new in the first century (Rev. 21:5) included both a new, spiritual and eternal Israel AND a new, spiritual and eternal world. The joint existence on the planet of the two worlds won't continue forever.


Date:

17 Oct 2004

Time:

18:09:24

Comments

That's exactly the point. In the typifying natural judgment of the pre-flood world EVERY thing living was destroyed, except those in the ark. The latter entered the new, but still merely natural and typifying, world. But in the spiritual fulfillment judgment


Date:

17 Oct 2004

Time:

18:50:56

Comments

Sorry. Accidentally posted prematurely. But in the GRACIOUS, fulfillment, spiritual judgment in AD 96 those who were Christ's (1 Cor. 15:23) entered the new SPIRITUAL and eternal world described in Rev. 21, 22. Please study the following facts: The natural world and natural Israel both had two ages, separated in the case of the world by the flood and in the case of Israel by the captivity in Babylon, and each of those four ages began with a typifying resurrection. The "resurrections" at the start of the first ages (Adam from the death in the garden and Israel from the death in the Red Sea) typified the resurrection of Christ in the spring of AD 30 (1 Cor. 15:23), and the "resurrections" at the start of the second ages (ONLY the faithful remnant of the world, i. e., Noah and his family, from the death in the flood and ONLY the faithful remnant of Israel from the death in Babylon, i. e., the resurrection of Ezek. 37) typified the resurrection of ONLY those who were Christ's at his parousia in AD 96 (1 Cor. 15:23). The resurrection of the rest of the dead, those who were NOT Christ's at the time of the AD 96 resurrection, awaits the end of this present, symbolically described "thousand years" of God's grace (Rev. 20:5). Because the typifying OT resurrections were preceded by a period of 100 years in the case of the world and by a period of 70 years in the case of Israel, the fulfillment spiritual resurrection at Christ's parousia had to be, and was, preceded by identifiable periods of 100 years and 70 years that both ended in the fifth hour of the morning on September 18 in AD 96, the day and hour (Mt. 24:36) of the death of Domitian.


Date:

18 Oct 2004

Time:

21:04:06

Comments

Here are a couple of quotes greatly admired by traditional preterists who talk a lot about the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem and very little about the AD 30 resurrection of Christ. "In all history there is no drama of more terrible interest than that which terminated with the total destruction of Jerusalem" - G. A. Henty. "The destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was the greatest single event of a thousand years, and religiously significant beyond anything else that occurred in human history" - James Burton Coffman. Do AD 70 preterists believe Christ's resurrection was even necessary? Did it accomplish ANYTHING, in their opinion?


Date:

19 Oct 2004

Time:

01:22:21

Comments

The NT makes it clear that Adam was a type fulfilled in the first century by Christ. Therefore, the old, fallen, natural world (the natural, unregenerate offspring of Adam and their natural institutions) was a type fulfilled in the first century by the new, perfect, spiritual world described in Rev. 21, 22. Just as Adam (type) and Christ (antitype) were completely different and separate (the antitype being incomparably superior to the type), so also the old, natural world (type) and the new, spiritual world (antitype) are completely different and separate (the antitype being incomparably superior to the type). 2 Cor. 4:18 makes it clear that the one that can be seen (the old, natural world) is temporary and only the one that cannot be seen (the new, spiritual world) is eternal. Those who are Christ's are IN that doomed natural world but they are NOT OF that world. Their eternal, spiritual dwelling place on the earth (their heaven on earth) is the eternal, spiritual world of Rev. 21,22 that appeared at the time of Christ's parousia in autumn of AD 96.


Date:

24 Oct 2004

Time:

06:23:38

Comments

The biggest problem futurism faces is the clear imminence throughout the NT. If the futurists could, in some intelligent and reasonable manner, explain why the nearness is not really nearness, I would be the first to be open to this. However, I have not seen a preterism critique that handles this. Why? Of course there would also be some theological issues to deal with as well. For example, scripture reports Christ's Kingdom (reign) beginning in the first century and never ending. Therefore, we have either not entered the Christian Era, or the Christian age will end when the world is destoyed etc. Didn't Jesus report that His Kingdom would come without observation? And didn't He say His Kingdom was no of this world? I wonder what that means? I was a futurist until I actually began studying the scriptures for myself. I honestly believe the futurists do not want to "give up" the physical resurrection. They might also object to not being a candidate for a physical "rapture". And lastly, how dare canon be closed and not include us! Where is our hope? This can't be all there is! Ah, it would appear that God continues to require faith. Maybe this is why Jesus said that He would shortly avenge against His enemies and in the same breath asked if He would find faith on the earth when He returned. Preterists believe Him.


Date:

24 Oct 2004

Time:

17:01:24

Comments

I HATE TO SOUND PESSIMISTIC BUT, I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT NO MATTER HOW MANY CLEAR AND FACTUAL LETTERS ARE WRITTEN LIKE THE ABOVE LETTER; PEOPLE ARE NEVER GOING TO PUT AWAY THIER PRECONCIEVED IDEAS THAT THEY WERE BROUGHT UP WITH. I DONT THINK THEY ARE BRAVE ENOUGH TO READ THE WORD AND SAY "COULD IT POSSIBLY SAY WHAT IT MEANS"? PEOPLE APPARENTLY ARE SCARED TO LOSE THIER SECURITY AND WOULD RATHER BELIEVE A LIE. SO BE IT.


Date:

24 Oct 2004

Time:

20:20:08

Comments

Full preterism is wrong for a very simple reason: ALL of the OT scriptures concerned Christ and ALL were designed by God to be spiritually fulfilled (Lk. 24:44) but the first-century spiritual fulfillments of the OT scriptures extended only to the point in OT Israel's history at which OT Babylon was destroyed.


Date:

11 Nov 2004

Time:

08:06:37

Comments

this article confirmed what I have felt for a long time, that is that traditional dispensationalism doesnt make any sense. Good article well written God Bless


Date:

14 Nov 2004

Time:

01:00:30

Comments

Is it necessary to yell in all-caps or to tear those down who do not agree with our beliefs? I am wondering how helpful it is to debate Scripture in such a manner [which seems like an oxy-moron, as I would think there are more verses pertaining to love than lambasting those who do not agree with our view]. I understand your fervor and frustration when people may hold to a position that seems contrary to the whole of Scripture in your opinion. But let us not neglect the fruit of the Spirit in our lives, which is love, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, just to name a few. I am not a preterist, I am not a 100% futurist. You make good points where Scripture is showing an immediate second coming [but I noticed most was using Young's Lit. Trans. and I assume there are other translations out there so I am not sold completely on "About to come" in every verse listed above]. I am by no means a Bible scholar and I may be very ignorant by your standards. I am just passing through, finding out why Hyper-preterists {Full-preterists} believe what they do. I come from a mainstream Charismatic denomination. They believe in a rapture, I do not. I haven't been convinced in Scripture that it is separate from the Second Coming. I am sure they have reasons to believe what they do. I am not able to see the distinction. I can't explain the tribulation nor the millenial reign. I haven't found a strong stance to take on either. So, I don't have any fancy theological titles or categories one might smugly put me in and therefore say they know exactly where I am coming from. I appreciate your article Jim. Your usage of Scripture was commendable. It made some good points. In discussing the whole preterist stance with a relative who is unabashedly Hyper-preterist, I am having the hardest time believing that Satan and demons are already in hell and there is no evil on earth except for man's inherrent evil desires. I AM one of those people who really don't see what hope there is for those who adopt your view that all prophecy has been fulfilled and we sort of just exist here. I don't understand how the Second Coming and Final Judgement already took place but it only pertained to Jews? What about Gentiles? I see your point of Scripture sounding like it was going to be an immediate return but why are we on the earth now? It seems to me that the Second Coming was a climactic event that the whole world would see Him in the sky [but no historical record in any culture of this event?] When I read in Revelations about the sea giving up their dead and all those dead and alive were to be before the throne in judgement, why hasn't there been any record of such an event that would, most assuredly, cause someone to make mention of it? Or is this explained by allegory?. Just some thoughts on the matter. I have been researching other sites on preterism and quite frankly, I think it is convenient for them to say Scripture was talking figuratively when it doesn't fit their theology. So, you hardliners ought to realize you don't escape the very thing you criticize your opponents for [that of ignoring or explaining away certain verses that don't fit into your puzzle]. I have yet to read or hear anyone who has it all put together perfectly. I commend you on your endeavor to find truth and showing Scriptures that seem to point in the same direction. Ecclesiastes 12-14 [unless this doesn't apply to you as a preterist]. :o)


Date:

14 Nov 2004

Time:

01:02:22

Comments

Oops, that was Eccl. 12:12-14! God bless!


Date:

17 Nov 2004

Time:

20:39:28

Comments

These eschatological arguments are intramural events. Even though I think the author misunderstands Scripture, I commend him for believing, studying it and so will Christ when He really shows up to bring His kingdom to earth. There is MUCH doctrine that we ought not give an inch on, where screaming and ranting is quite appropiate at times. Would y'all agree eschatology ought not be grounds for bitterness between us? JR


Date:

18 Nov 2004

Time:

06:17:21

Comments

To the writer of 14 Nov 2004, 01:00:30: You mentioned the concerns of preterists spiritualizing passages to suit their doctrines when necessary. Some points should be made about this assertion: First, most (dispensational) futurists usually claim the interpretative high ground in such matter, i.e., they claim that they are being "more" literal than preterists in the first place, whereas preterists have a more open and honest understanding of their interpretation. Hence, it seems a bit hypocritical that those who speak of "literalism" should turn locusts into helicopters while accusing preterists of spiritualizing, all the while they (dispensationalists) are ignoring time frames (near, soon, etc.). Second, it should also be pointed out that preterists strive to use "scripture to interpret scripture"; hence, the vast majority of preterist "spiritualizing" is to no greater an extent than that found in the Old Testament. This is relevant, because dispensationalists might say, for example, "if Zechariah 14 is fulfilled, when was the mount of Olives split in two?" disregarding the fact that John the Baptist fulfilled Isaiah 40:3-5 even without mountains literally being levelled. So, the question essentially becomes, "how do dispensationalists who argue thus legitimely call themselves 'literal' when they neither take time texts (soon, near, at hand, "we who ARE alive and REMAIN") literally nor prophetic passages (helicopters from locusts, conjecturing a future temple into 2 Thess. 2 to fulfill futurist interpretation, when this passage was written before Herod's temple fell)? What's "literal" about the dispensational view of Revelation? For example, they neither believe that it was fulfilled soon, nor that all the symbols therein are literal (literal beasts, for example, which most all schools see as symbolic). In short, it seems that the only time dispensationalists have a problem with spiritual or figurative interpretation is when it supports an alternative eschatology. A longer study of these issues can be found  . As for "hope" the Bible says, "Hope deferred makes the heart sick, But desire fulfilled is a tree of life" (Prov. 13:12). Preterists believe that their hope is fulfilled, and rejoice in victory. Certainly futurists don't think that their future afterlife/eternal state will be meaningless because by that time all will have been fulfilled, do they? Neither then can one hold that the present is meaningless if all is fulfilled. Kenneth P.


Date: 03 Sep 2005
Time: 17:10:44

Comments:

You Hyper- Preterists strain at gnats and swallow camels. Dr. Gentry simply is pointing out the fact that you ARE stepping outside of Orthodoxy and you ought to be aware of that fact - at least as much as the Reformers did, and to tread carefully.


Dispensationalists stepped over the line in 1830 and look how far from Orthodox Doctrine they are today!


I, for one, have yet to hear a satisfactory answer on the second advent: If it already occured in AD 70 then where is Jesus' now; and why do the heathens still rage?


Date: 01 Jan 2006
Time: 21:22:55

Comments:

l think that when Jesus said that
He would come quickly that He
meant that when He would come
it would be quickly-as the flash
of lightning from east to west


Date: 28 May 2006
Time: 02:35:14

Comments:

Excellent article. I had already processed most of the scriptures referenced but enjoyed mostly the kind and loving means in which this article was written. Totally absent is the mean spirited reactionary comments upbraiding those who embrace alternate views. Like Jim, I was also raised in the D.F. tradition and probably would be still be in that camp today if not for being called to the mission field in Africa where I began to hang out with believers of many different persuasions. It actually took several years after being confronted with the fact that there existed other eschatologies before I had the guts to begin to research and read books written from differing positions but now some 8 years later have become convinced.

In response to some of the blogs and to the article
I have some comments. First let me state that I don't claim to know everything but that doesn't mean I am not entitled to my opinions. I, however,
don't make a practice of trying to canonize them.
So I have developed some opinions that are merely that, my opinions and nothing more, so nobody need feel overly threatened by what I want to share.

As Jim stated so well in his article, the time references of the NT are glaring if one only look. I also see no way of escaping that Jesus and the other NT authors connected the parousia with judgment and the general resurrection. This created one of the greatest enigmas for me. One day while at church alone and praying, this matter being on my mind I suddenly had an idea. Whether
it came from the Holy Spirit or not, will be revealed when I am judged. I remembered Hebrews 9:27 and John 5th chapters remarks about judgment
and it jumped out that all the judgment scriptures seem to take place where the dead are. I realize
that it is more orthodox to believe that Christ took the captives from Hades at the time of the crucifixion, but I cannot verify that conclusion with a specific scripture that clearly says that.
I do read Paul making several references to "the dead in Christ" and a present tense reality of "sleep" some 25-30 years after the ascension causing me to doubt the validity of the orthodox view.(i.e. 1Thes 4:13-17) Given the choice of who to agree with, orthodox tradition or the Apostle Paul, I'll go with Paul every time. So my point is that there is Biblical evidence that the residents in Paradise or Sheol or Hades or Abrahams Bosom or whatever you want to call it became Paul's "Dead in Christ." Have I pushed you over the edge yet? So heres the way I see it now.
All the scriptures pertaining to coming with angels
and trumpet blasts and all that cool stuff probably literally happened. Down there...not up here. Yes I believe that the Romans were the Lord's agency of judgment upon the guilty nation and that Jesus purposely connected the white throne judgment with the fall of Jerusalem. In that way we had something historically verifiable to be our "sign" that the events that we would never be able to verify (unless you were among those who had died before that time)had indeed taken place.

It made sense to me that the Lord's 1st coming was about giving us the Gospel, discipling the apostles and modeling the true and living way before becoming "the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world." His 2nd coming was about judging and giving to each according to his deeds and taking His own to heaven and presenting them to His father (i.e. 1 Cor 15:24)which concluded His mission. So it begs the question, what about us? Well, consider the cross....it affected everyone before, during and after...and yet its occurance can be historically linked to a specific place on the time line. So why couldn't the judgment and resurrection have that same quality. Besides, there are numerous scriptures that indicate that the earth will last forever (Ecc 1:4 for starters) or did Solomon, David, Daniel and Paul get that point wrong. So if the earth is forever, (you argue with the Bible, I can't and don't want to) where YOU gonna put the judgment and resurrection on the time line? Can't

Anyway, like I said earlier, these are just my opinions and nothing more. Not selling any books or starting any movements and sure don't have any axes to grind. If you see it diffently, God bless you. If you can be civil when sharing your differences of opinions I am interested in what you might say. (except the guy with the AD 96 stuff, I have never heard anything so off the wall!!)


Date: 25 Oct 2006
Time: 17:45:46

Comments:

I absolutely believe that John and Enoch and still others that were promised to "live untilI come" or 'WHO walked with God, and was no more upon the earth" is true. I equally agree that Jesus was not prone to making useless, silly statements. If it is recorded as happening in the gospel of John, then there was something to it. Jesus knew that death (or debt) that occured to every living being, could, through the Father, could be stayed for the few that Jesus needed to keep an eye on things during his 2,000 year absence, till He returned to the earth. These immortal beings probably were glorified in the Celtic legends of immortals who could only be killed if they stumbled upon the misfortune of being decapitated. How else would Jesus be able to transmit brilliant and blessed new events or innovations to a person who never tasted death butwaited for the cues from Jesus to bring new technology to help save us, and to keep our Spirits alive and functioning for the Lord until the Lor
puter, p
hone, use 21st century means of travel (heck they probably invented the methods, or appeard to invent the methods). NOW, I GO ON THE RECORD HERE AND OTHER PLACES, THAT I AM SEEKING THESE IMMORTAL MEN OF GOD AS THEY ARE RIGHT NOW, SO WE CAN ALL BE READY FOR THE EVER NEARING DAY OF THE LORD. HOW ABOUT IT JOHN? LET'S ALL HOOK UP. KHMRAW@HOTMAIL.COM


Date: 20 Nov 2006
Time: 15:15:00

Comments:

Thank you for the interesting study. Your point is well taken with regards to Jesus and apostles statements ... "These are things that must shortly come to pass", "The time is at hand, or near!" "Behold I am coming quickly!" I am going to read up on this some more.

I have just recently been introduced to the studies by Steve Gregg, and in particular his 6 hour study on "Who is Israel" from his website. I have been a Christian for just over 23 years and have never heard the proofs presented like he did. Why hasn't my church discovered these things. And Steve made his case well, or shall I say the Bible did. We are the chosen, the seed of Abraham now. Those who have the faith of Abraham. Wow, my eyes and spirit have been opened.

While I still do have too many questions that have not been answered to my satisfaction concerning the 2nd coming, I am reading quite a bit of the works on this site. Most people I know wouldn't give you guys here the time of day and I think they really think you're all heretics. How sad. Too set in their ways and refusing to learn since it would make them uncomfortable.

Thanks for providing such great biblical teaching.

Steve


Date: 12 Jan 2007
Time: 14:09:07

Comments:

and so what? now we are living in His glorious kingdom? Jesus himself is reighnin on the throne in Jerusulem... that is not happening. to many propheseys not fullfilled man. Jesus is coming to rule the earth. duh.


Date: 09 Feb 2007
Time: 21:21:51

Comments:

2Pet. 3:8;...but, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. So....these past two thousand years can be as merely 2 days! No wonder the NT writers used timelines that seemed to describe the time as being short, at hand, etc. Only the Father knows the day and the hour......and we are to watch


Date: 02 May 2007
Time: 11:42:08

Comments:

I look up, and I see a giant ball of fire providing heat and light to the world, not God (not directly anyway). I look around me and I see tears (often in my own eyes). I know that if I saw a lion lying with a lamb it would not be a good thing for the lamb. If I saw a child playing with a snake he would be in grave danger. I look to the East and though it should be large enough and glorious enough to see even from here, some how I do not see the city of New Jerusalem. I know that I am a Child of God and a disciple of Christ because I have confessed with my mouth, and my heart that he is Lord of lords, and King of kings, yet I’m not standing in the Kingdom now. I still have to fight Satans deceptions (such as this) on a Dailey basis, so I’m sure he has not yet been cast into the lake of fire with the anti Christ and the False prophet, where he will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. In 70 AD Jerusalem was not saved from destruction but it fell to it.

I notice that one thing is missing in this article and many of the post, and that is a declaration of faith. Often when some one shares true revelation from the Holy Spirit, their telling of it is also dripping and soaked in praise to God the Father, and Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. When something is false that is almost always missing in its place is a feeling of how wise and spiritual the person bringing the message is. How they in their own wisdom where able to pick through the scripture and see what is plainly written but the foolish where unable to see.

All scripture is understood and taught by the Holy Spirit, no true understanding of a few verses will cause other verses to be even more confusing. For instance, if the resurrection and Judgment is over, then who or what are we who are here now? Each verse is a piece of the puzzle; one part of the whole picture, this idea leaves out many of the most important peaces.

I, a disciple of Christ, a child of the one true God of Abraham confess now That Jesus Christ who came in the flesh, who died for our sins and rose again on the third day, the same Jesus who sets at the right hand of God the father is the son of God, and is God, he is the lord and the master of my body, soul, and spirit. And because of that I can tell you assuredly that this is a serious departure from the Gospel of Truth which I walk in. This is a teaching that seems right only on the surface but with only a little digging, and more importantly with a little prayer and guidance form the Holy Spirit of God it is clear not only that it is wrong but dangerous. May God Show you the truth and lift the vial over your eyes. Praise to his name

Brother Caius.


Date: 21 May 2007
Time: 20:54:26

Comments:

I believe I may have seen the apostle John twice, there is other stuff that has happend it is like there is a battle going on for my soul, and there was the book that had the names of all teh people I have met...what does it mean?


 

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