POSITIONS IN THIS ARTICLE:
SOME DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES OF SYSTEMATIZED
It is important to keep in mind that many ideas and doctrines
full preterism appeals to - such as the complete end of the Old
Covenant world in AD70 - are by no means distinctive to that view.
Many non HyPs believe this as well, so one need not embrace the Hyper
Preterist system in order to endorse this view. Following
are exceptional doctrines which, so far as I've seen, are only taught by
adherents of Hyper Preterism.:
DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES TAUGHT BY STANDARD
All Bible Prophecy was Fulfilled By AD70
Atonement Incomplete at Cross ;
Complete at AD70
The Supernatural Power of Evil
Ended in AD70
The Spirit of Antichrist was
Destroyed in AD70
"The Consummation of the Ages"
Came in AD70
"The Millennium" is in the Past, From
AD30 to AD70
Nothing to be Resurrected From
in Post AD70 World ; Hades Destroyed
The Christian Age Began in AD70
; Earth Will Never End
"The Day of the Lord" was Israel's
Destruction ending in AD70
The "Second Coming" of Jesus
Christ Took Place in AD70-ish
The Great Judgment took place
in AD70 ; No Future Judgment
The Law, Death, Sin, Devil,
Hades, etc. Utterly Defeated in AD70
of the Dead and Living is Past, Having Taken
Place in AD70
The Context of the Entire Bible
is Pre-AD70 ; Not Written To Post AD70 World
DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES TAUGHT BY VARIOUS FORMS
Baptism was for Pre-AD70 Era (Cessationism)
The Lord's Prayer was for Pre-AD70
The Lord's Supper was for Pre-AD70
The Holy Spirit's Paraclete Work
Ceased in AD70 (Cessationism)
The Consummation in AD70 Caused
Church Offices to Cease (Cessationism)
The Resurrection in AD70 Changed
the "Constitutional Principle" of Marriage (Noyesism)
Israel and Humanity Delivered into
Ultimate Liberty in AD70 (TransmillennialismTM)
The Judgment in AD70 Reconciled All
of Mankind to God ; All Saved (Preterist Universalism)
Adam's Sin No Longer Imputed in
Post AD70 World ; No Need to be Born Again (Preterist Universalism)
When Jesus Delivered the Kingdom to
the Father in AD70, He Ceased Being The Intermediary (Pantelism/Comprehensive
The Book of Genesis is an
Apocalypse; is About Creation of First Covenant Man, not First Historical
Man (Covenantal Preterism)
David Chilton (1987)
"What “clear warnings” had God given them? Apart from the apostolic preaching, which was all they really needed (cf. Luke 16:27-31), God had sent miraculous signs and wonders to testify of the coming judgment; Jesus had warned that, preceding the Fall of Jerusalem, “there will be terrors and great signs from heaven” (Luke 21:11). This was especially true during the festival seasons of the year 66. Josephus continues in his report: “While the people were assembling for the Feast of Unleavened Bread, on the eighth of the month of Nisan, at the ninth hour of the night [3:00 A. M.] so bright a light shone round the altar and Temple that it looked like broad daylight; and this lasted for half an hour. The inexperienced regarded it as a good omen, but it was immediately interpreted by the sacred scribes in conformity with subsequent events.”
Those who were unable to attend the regular Feast of Passover were required to celebrate it a month later (Numbers 9:9-13). Josephus reports a third great wonder that happened at the end of this Second Passover in 66: “A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.” (Jerusalem Under Siege)
The Seven Heads and Ten Horns
By Eric Fugett
In this article on the "Seven Heads & Ten Horns," A Personal Revelation author, Eric Fugett, explains the symbolism behind the seven heads and ten horns in the book of Revelation. Below are a few excerpts from chapters thirteen and seventeen of my book, A Personal Revelation.
Chapter thirteen of the book of Revelation opens with a beast coming out of the sea or the world. The beast is said to have the qualities of several animals. Perhaps John is making a reference to the beasts in Daniel’s visions in Daniel chapter seven. Those beasts represented the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman empires. The last beast mentioned in Daniel chapter seven, as well as the last part of the statue in Daniel chapter two, is a prophecy in reference to the Roman Empire.
Here in verse one, we find that the beast has ten horns, seven heads, and each horn had a crown on it with a blasphemous name on it. The beast out of the sea is obviously the Rome Empire. More will be said about the ten horns and seven heads in chapter seventeen. At the end of verse two, we discover that it is Satan who gives the beast or Rome its power. As for the fatal wound that the beast suffered, there are a few possibilities as to what it could be in reference to.
The first possibility is that it could be Cestius Gallus’ retreat and defeat at the hands of the Jews in Jerusalem (Josephus, The Wars, Book II, Chapter 19, Section 6).
The second possibility is that it is the spread of Christianity throughout the Roman Empire. It is mentioned several times in the Bible that the gospel message was spread around the world or Roman Empire (Romans 10:18; Philippians 4:22; Colossians 1:6; and 1 Timothy 3:16). It was even advancing in Rome itself as is evident by the book of Romans and Philippians 1:12-18. Philippians 4:22 tells us that some of the members of Caesar’s own household had become Christians. Because verse fourteen tells us that the beast was wounded by the sword (Word of God), this explanation is stronger than the first. The recovery of the wound would then be Rome’s persecution of the church.
The third possibility is the one that results from looking at the word "wound" which occurs twice in verse three. I found it strange that a different word was used each time. The first part of that verse should say, "One of the heads was slain (or butchered) to death" rather than 'seemed to have had a fatal wound.' It could even be translated as "the first of the heads was slain (or butchered) to death." Now which of the Caesars would that be? Julius, of course! Since both Rome and the line of Caesars continued in power, I would say that the wound was definitely healed.
The angel, in Revelation chapter 17, also tells us what the seven heads and ten horns with ten crowns represent, including which emperor this beast who once was, now is not, and yet will come is. We are told that the seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. This is an another obvious reference to Rome, known as the city on seven hills.
Then we are told that the seven hills are also seven kings or emperors. Five have fallen, which is a reference to the five Caesars who had died by this time, Julius Caesar (who was shown to be included in the count because of the reasons given above), Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius. One is, which is a reference to Nero, the current emperor at the time the book is written.
Daniel also had a dream about Nero in Daniel 7:8 and was given an interpretation that said he would displace three of the ten kings. This is a reference to Azizas being replaced upon his death by Soemus his brother, Aristobulus the son of Herod being entrusted with Lesser Armenia, and Agrippa parts of Galilee, Tiberias, Tarichae, and Julias (Josephus, The Antiquities Book XX, Chapter 8, Section 4).
The seventh emperor we are told is a future one who will only lead for a little while. This is a reference to Galba who reigned for seven months during 68-69 CE. However, this eighth king is a bit of a mystery because there are two men who led for a very short time (a few months), Otho and Vitellus. I doubt either of these men could represent the powerful eighth king, who is to accomplish God’s purpose until God’s words are fulfilled (verse seventeen). The eighth emperor or beast is described as follows, "he once was, now is not, & will come up out of the abyss. This emperor is more than likely Vespasian who became emperor in 69 CE.
Vespasian was once the mightiest of the Roman generals, but was banished from Nero's presence, during the time that John was writing, because he left several times during performances while Nero was singing or fell asleep if he remained. He was brought back to power to squelch the Jewish rebellions because of an old established belief from the Orient that men from Judea would rule the world at this time (Suetonius: De Vita Caesarum--Divus Vespasianus, Section IV). A few short years later, Vespasian became emperor.
David Chilton makes a case for the number "eight" being the number that represents resurrection in his book, Days of Vengeance (pp. 434-437). He sites the eight survivors of the flood, and Jesus’ resurrection on the eighth day (since it was a Sunday) as his reasoning. Therefore, since Rome had struggled through the reigns of Galba, Otho, and Vitellus, Vespasian’s reign represented a resurrection of the Roman Empire’s power. Vespasian defeated most of Judea and sent his son Titus to destroy Jerusalem. Titus is the prince (NKJV) who was prophesied to come and destroy the city and the sanctuary in Daniel 9:26.
Next, we are told that the ten horns are ten kings. These are more than likely the leaders of the ten provinces of Rome which were, Italy, Achaia, Asia, Syria, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Gaul, Britain, and Germany (F.W. Farrar, The Early Days of Christianity (Chicago & New York: Bedford, Clarke & Co., 1882) p. 532).
Explanations for the seven heads and ten horns are just a few of the things you will discover if you read my book, A Personal Revelation.
What do YOU think ?
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- 10 Aug 2004
Author: Please explain why the dragon with the seven heads and 10 horns (Rev. 12:3) had the crowns on his HEADS while the beast with the seven heads and 10 horns (Rev. 13:1) had the crowns on his HORNS
- 14 Aug 2004
In my opinion, Revelation 12:3 is describing Satan as the ruler of the world (John 12:31, Ephesians 2:2). The 7 heads represent the known world or Roman Empire & the 10 horns would thus represent the 10 provinces of Rome mentioned above in my article. The 7 crowns represent Satan's power or total dominion over the world/Roman Empire. Whereas in Revelation 13:1-3, there was a beast coming out the sea with heads, horns, and crowns. Here the beast is similar to the beasts in Daniel's visions. The beast in power at this time, according to Daniel's descriptions, would be the Roman Empire. The sea throughout the book of Revelation can be taken to represent the Gentiles. According to verse 3, the dragon or Satan gave the beast his power, throne, and great authority. So the beast is Rome and/or its leadership, which at this point would be Nero. So in this passage the 10 horns represent the 10 provinces of Rome mentioned above in my article, the 7 heads identify Rome itself, and the 10 crowns would have to be the power of the Roman Empire as exercised through the 10 provinces. I believe that Revelation 17:3-13 verifies this explanation of the two passages you mentioned above. This was a great question. I will have to rewrite my article to include this information. Thanks. Eric
- 14 Aug 2004
Before your re-write, please consider this suggestion: You're correct that the 7 heads represent first-century Rome and the 10 horns represent Rome's first-century provinces. But the placement of the crowns denotes the area from which the reigning power (emperor) arose. As you know, the first five first-century emperors (Augustus through Nero) rose to power in Rome but the next six (Galba through Domitian) rose to power in the provinces as a result of the civil wars that followed the death of Nero. Thus the crowns on the seven heads in Rev. 12:3 refer to an event that occurred during the reign of one of the first five emperors (the reference is to Satan's attempt to have Herod, Rome's puppet king, kill the infant Jesus, during the reign of Augustus) while the crowns on the 10 horns in Rev. 13:1 refer to events occurring during the reign of one of the last six emperors. That fact, of course, eliminates Nero as the villain of Rev. 13.
- 15 Aug 2004
I guess we disagree on the first five emperors. Every 1st Century writer I've read from begins the list with Julius. Check Suetonius for example. My explanation of Revelation 13:3 seems to prove that John began his count with Julius as well. Therefore, Nero is not only the villain of Revelation 13, but also the sixth emperor & the one who is known for his persecution of Christians. Again, check history from 1st Century writers & others up to about 120 CE. Or you could also read Gentry's book, Before Jerusalem fell.
- 16 Aug 2004
The Roman emperors who mattered with respect to the momentous first-century events that involved Christ and the church were, obviously, the 11 first-century emperors, Augustus through Domitian (the 11 horns of Dan. 7). In the Rev. 17:10,11 counting of those first-century emperors Galba, Otho and Vitellius are excluded because their power was never consolidated, their "reigns" were brief and meaningless. Thus, five were fallen (Augustus through Nero); one was reigning (Vespasian, father of the next two); the one who had not yet come and would reign for "a short space" was Titus, who reigned only 2 years, and the 8th, "the beast that was and is not," was Domitian. Nero never demanded that the whole world worship him (Rev. 13) but Domitian did. Nero was not destroyed at the time of preterism's misplaced AD 70 parousia (2 Thes. 2:8) but Domitian was destroyed at the time of Christ's actual parousia in autumn of AD 96 (the end of the true first century). The day and hour of Domitian's death recorded by Suetonius is the day and hour of Mt. 24:36.
- 16 Aug 2004
Further, you ignore the significance (time element) of the crowns originally being shown on the seven heads, representing first-century Rome, and subsequently being shown on the 10 horns, representing Rome's first-century provinces. That change, however, was an important event in the history of first-century Rome. In his introduction to "The Agricola and the Germania" by Tacitus, Harold Mattingly wrote, with respect to Galba's rise to the throne: "A secret of empire had now been divulged: an emperor need not necessarily be made in Rome." Since Nero was one of the 5 first-century emperors who WERE made in Rome, it's clear that the crowns on the horns in Rev. 13:1 point to events occurring after Nero was out of the picture.
- 16 Aug 2004
I think the time element that may be missing here is the times, times and a half a time, 1260 days or 42 months. This clearly puts the time period between 63 CE & 70 CE, more specifically the time after Nero burned Rome until his death. All of the other stuff you present sounds good, but God is not a God of confusion. The symbols do not keep switching their meaning from chapter to chapter. Continuity is what helps us to understand the Bible.
- 16 Aug 2004
The 42 months referred to in Dan. 7:25 and Rev. 13:5 refer to the last 3 1/2 years of Domitian's reign over the world, referred to by historians as "the black years" and "the reign of terror." Preterists can't grasp the complete truth about the first century because they can't grasp the fact that Rev. 21:1 refers to the first-century natural world, rather than to first-century natural Israel. If they could spiritually discern the meaning of 2 Cor. 5:17 they might also be able to spiritually discern the meaning of Rev. 21:1. However, very few Bible scholars have ever cleared that spiritual hurdle.
- 17 Aug 2004
Because my views are somewhat different from everyone else's, I do not want to dismiss what you are saying without further investigating it. I understand the frustration of not being understood when you believe you have discovered a great truth. So can you tell me who the historians are that you are quoting who say that Domitians last 3 1/2 years were, "the black years" and "the reign of terror?" Thanks. Eric
- 17 Aug 2004
Michael Grant's Introduction to "The Annals of Imperial Rome" by Tacitus refers to "the black years of Domitian." (Grant also calls Augustus the founder of the Roman Empire.) The article on Domitian in the Encyclopedia Britannica, edition of 1966, says "the years 93-96 were regarded as a period of terror hitherto unsurpassed." There are many other such references but they are not the reason why Domitian alone qualifies as the first beast of Rev. 13. One of the greatest failures of Bible scholars has been their inability to see the competition (to rule spiritually over the human race) that existed in the first century between the true, heavenly Trinity and a counterfeit, earthly trinity, namely, Satan who coveted God's place - the ruling first-century emperor who was Satan's false Messiah - and the first-century Imperial Cult (the second beast of Rev. 13) that was Satan's false church, inspired and empowered by Satan's evil spirit as the young first-century church was inspired and empowered by the Holy Spirit. Of the 11 first-century emperors, Domitian alone, in his latter years, was fanatical about his belief that he was God, and that belief thrilled the satanic Imperial Cult and inspired it, as never before, to persecute, and attempt to destroy, the young church, which was concentrated in areas of Asia Minor in the latter part of the first century. That's why the book of Revelation was addressed to the believers in that area. Nero's natural persecution of the Christians in Rome involved his search for a scapegoat in connection with the great fire during his reign (but Revelation was not addressed to the believers in Rome) but the SPIRITUAL persecution of Christians during Domitian's latter years, involving the true believers' refusal to grant Domitian divine honors above those owed to Christ, was in the provinces. With the second persecution of Christians occurring during the latter years of Domitian's reign, Domitian seemed to be the resurrected Nero - thus Rev. 13:3.
- 17 Aug 2004
Thanks. I believe the way to continue growing is to check things out for yourself. I'll do that & get back to you.
- 18 Aug 2004
I have something to add to this. I am indebted to you for giving me the information I needed about the ten horns. I had the sneaking suspicion that the horns represented the provinces, but I hadn't taken the time to check them yet. I was doing some in depth reading trying to understand something else, which I would presently like to share. I hope it is of edification: I read an incongruous article that expressed a fragment of an idea that I thought upon and found to be of great worth in ways the author of the article never touched upon. I bothered by the inconsistencies with the beast, the eleven horns of Daniel, and the other events. Each in its own way had merit, but together they didn't work. After the fragment of this article, what I came up with, viewing the Revelation from a Jewish/Worldly perspective, was this line of kings: Julius, Antony, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian, and Titus. This line of kings, while not correct by Senatorial decree, is the line of kings the Jews would have recognized. After the demise of Julius, Octavian and Antony split the power of the Empire, Octavian taking the West, and Antony taking the East which included Judea. Antony may never have been an Emperor by decree, but he was most certainly a ruler over the Jews, and Herod recognized him as such, even to the extent of levying troops for his cause before Actium. By this line of kings, you have your beast with seven heads, as it is a commonly held opinion, even then, that Nero was the end of the line of the Caesars. Of your first seven heads in Rev. 13, Julius is one and is slain, and his wound is "tended to," as you so eloquently put it, by Antony and Augustus, causing all the world to marvel at the power of the beast. Who can make war with the Empire? Antony is two. Augustus is three. Tiberius is four. Caligula is five. Claudius is six. And Nero, the last of the Caesars, is seven. Of your seven heads of Rev. 17, Julius is still one. Antony is two. Augustus is three. Tiberius is four. Caligula is five. Claudius is six, and currently in power at the time Revelation was written. Five have fallen. One is. One is yet to come, and when he comes ... he must continue a short space ... "oligon auton dei meinai" [*a period of time *he *it is necessary *stay]. When he comes, it is necessary for him to stay a period of time (length unspecified). Nero came, the seventh, and it was necessary for him to stay a period of time (length unspecified). Your two horned beast of Rev. 13 exercises all the authority of the first beast, as did Vespasian and Titus when they were sent by Nero. Vespasian then made an image "to" the beast in the form of the grandest colleseum the world had ever seen. And he gave life back to the beast, reviving an otherwise dead Empire that had seen years of civil war, pestilence, famine, and everything else, by solidifying the Flavian line on the throne of the Empire. This same Vespasian, who was also "an" eighth, but was "of" the seven, was sent by Nero, so was in fact "of" the seven, and becamse the next legitimate Emperor, thus skipping, but necessarily excluding, Galba, Otho, and Vitellius. Of the eleven horns of Daniel, the same line still applies. Julius is one. Antony is two. Augustus is three. Tiberius is four. Caligula is five. Claudius is six. Nero is seven. Galba is eight. Otho is nine. Vitellius is ten. And an eleventh horn, Vespasian, rose up in the midst of civil strife, and pushed Galba, Otho, and Vitellius out of the way.
- 19 Aug 2004
Very creative king-counting. Wrong - but creative. The little horn of Dan. 7, the son of perdition of 2 Thes. 2:3, the white horse rider of Rev. 6:2, the first beast of Rev. 13 and the beast that goeth into perdition of Rev. 17:11 are one and the same man, namely, Domitian, the 11th first-century emperor. Nero doesn't fit those five descriptions. Further, if Revelation was written to comfort and encourage the Christians who were being persecuted by Nero IN ROME, why was that book addressed "to the seven churches which are IN ASIA" (Rev. 1:4)?
- 21 Aug 2004
I would definitely disagree with you on all of those being the same. Revelation 19 tells us who the rider on the white horse is, it is Jesus. The son of perdition would have to be a Jew & as you read in 2 Thess. 2 set himself up in the temple. Therefore he could only be Eleazar, the leader of the Zealots. And who said that Revelation was written to encourage the Christians in Rome? If you read the chapter one preview of my book, then you know that I believe that the Christians in Jerusalem needed to hear this message. Besides all that, I clearly date the book of Revelation as September 11, 63 CE in my article on Dating the Book of Revelation. The Syriac version of Revelation clearly states that John was banished under Nero. I'm sure there is something to what you are saying, but most if not all of what I found on my own, shows the Preterist View to be the most correct.
- 21 Aug 2004
Wow! You're saying that social chaos (the next three horses of Rev. 6) follows in Christ's wake! A terrible idea. No, a knowledge of Domitian's personal history clearly identifies him as the white horse rider. First, during the triumph in Rome for the destruction of Jerusalem, Vespasian and Titus rode in the victory chariot and a very unhappy Domitian had to ride behind on a white horse. Second, Domitian had spectacular skill with the bow and arrow. Third, when Domitian, the little horn (little brother complex), became emperor (by poisoning Titus?) he launched foolish and unnecessary military adventures to prove that, by golly, he could be as much of a conqueror as his daddy and his older brother.
- 21 Aug 2004
Author: Do you hold the preterist belief that it was in autumn of AD 70, rather than in the spring of AD 30 (or whatever date you use for Christ's death, burial, resurrection and ascension), that the yoke of the law was finally destroyed, and the gates of heaven were finally opened, and New Covenant Israel (the church) finally appeared? If so, aren't you saying that Titus, the son of the Roman emperor, rather than Christ, the Son of God, accomplished those three great and wonderful things?
- 22 Aug 2004
This is the author so let me answer the one beginning with Wow! first. Please read Leviticus 26 & Deuteronomy 28. What you will discover is that these seals are in reference to judgment against Israel. Much like Babylon destroyed Jerusalem, & many of those same judgments were predicted by the prophets of that time, Rome destroyed Jerusalem as well. The thing that brings it all together as that both destructions of the temple happened on the same Jewish Day. (Read my article on the Lord's Day.) Therefore, yes, Jesus is the rider on the white horse and these are the judgments that He said would come on this generation (Matthew 24).
- 22 Aug 2004
Now for the one directed to me as the author, yes I believe that Jesus destroyed the yoke of the law with his death, burial, & resurrection. However, I also believe that much like the Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years before entering the Promise Land, the church & Israel shared in being the kingdom of God on Earth until the final judgment in 70 CE. At that point, the church became the sole kingdom of God.
- 22 Aug 2004
Sorry I left off my desire to have you read the analogy of Galatians 4, which explains how the church was to inherit the kingdom, much like Isaac did when Ishmael was removed from the picture.
- 22 Aug 2004
If you can make yourself believe that Rev. 6 refers to God's first-century judgment of Israel, rather than his subsequent first-century judgment of the whole world (see, for example, Rev. 3:10 and 6:15), then, of course, you can make the Bible mean anything you want it to. The "great tribulation" of Rev. 7:14 occurred during the last 3 1/2 years of Domitian's reign and and involved the entire first-century world -- "ALL NATIONS, AND KINDREDS, AND PEOPLES, AND TONGUES" -- unlike the "great tribulation" that ended in AD 70 and involved only the people of Israel.
- 22 Aug 2004
I'm not a Greek scholar by any means, but I think most of your confusion is the result of the Greek words oikoumene, which is the known world (Roman Empire), and ge, which is often translated earth or land & is usually in reference to Israel. You actually find both words in Revelation 3:10. Though the trial is to be worldwide (Roman Empire), the test is only for the earth (ge or people of God). As for Revelation 7, I do not understand your point. Of course people from everywhere would before the throne (dressed in white), since salvation was opened up to both Jews & Gentiles. I don't think I need to give the numerous Scriptures that attest to this.
- 22 Aug 2004
The confusion is yours and obviously results from your adoption of the word games (so like those of the dispensationalists) that you came across while reading preterist commentaries in forming your views -- one of preterists' favorites being their misuse of the word "ge," Strong's 1093, which has led you to make the false statement that "ge" usually refers to the land of Israel. A favorite preterist trick involves the claim that "the tribes of the earth" (Mt. 24:30) refers to the 12 tribes of Israel. But when the NT writers intended the words "tribe" or "tribes" to refer to the first-century Israelites they made their intention clear by using the name of the tribe or the words "the twelve tribes" or "the tribes of the children of Israel." Those qualifying words are not found in Mt. 24:30, OR in Rev. 1:7 with respect to the word "kindred," because the reference in those verses is to all of the people of the first-century world. Preterists will continue in their confusion unless somehow they acquire the spiritual discernment that will enable them to understand that the words "passed away" in Rev. 21:1 do not refer to a physical or natural destruction, just as the words "passed away" in 2 Cor. 5:17 do not refer to a physical or natural destruction.
- 28 Aug 2004
I guess we just disagree on this topic. Eric
- 31 Aug 2004
Here's another valuable tip for you: Dan. 7 obviously deals with first-century events. There were 11 Roman emperors in the true first-century (eliminating the 4-year error in our calendar). Thus, it's logical to conclude that the 11 horns of Dan. 7 were those 11 emperors -- Augustus through Domitian. And equally logical to conclude that the three horns (emperors) that were "plucked up by the roots" were Galba, Otho and Vitellius.
- 13 Sep 2004
All of your arguments are fine, but you never answered my statement about the emperor who was slain being Julius Caesar. There is no way to get around who that is referring to & why the count must begin with him, as the historians of that time clearly indicate.
- 21 Oct 2004
Your article above says "Then we are told that the seven hills are also seven kings or emperors." "Five have fallen, which is a reference to the five Caesars who had died by this time, Julius Caesar (who was shown to be included in the count because of the reasons given above), Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius. One is, which is a reference to Nero, the current emperor at the time the book is written. You can see in the first sentence above that you say the seven hills are seven kings. The Bible DOES NOT SAY THAT. It says: Rev 17:9 & 10 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (KJV) The Bible says the seven heads are seven mountains. It also speaks of seven kings but does not call them hills nor the hills, kings. Neither does it say the mountains(hills) are kings. Thought you might like to know.
- 21 Oct 2004
I looked it up in the Greek & I think you are right about what it says. I don't see how that changes my interpretation though. It still points to Rome & the emperors. Do you have another scenario that I should look at? I ask because I do not know to whom I am replying. Thanks, Eric.
- 26 Nov 2004
|Date: 01 Oct 2005
A Question for the Author: How can Nero have fulfilled Daniel's
prediction of humbling three kings in the way you say he did?
Nothing in that quote from Josephus seems to imply that Nero humbled
those three kings; it simply says that Azizas was succeeded by
Soemus and that Nero gave the other two kings more territory, not
that he humbled or displaced all three of them as Daniel 7 states.
Date: 21 Oct 2005
I guess the answer to that question lies in who or what you believe
the ten horns represent.
Date: 24 May 2006
7 Heads 10 horns = 17 things. The math (tensor) for 4 dimensions has
17 elements too.
Date: 06 Dec 2006
Augustus (ôgŭs'tus, ugŭs'–) [key], 63 B.C.–A.D. 14, first
Roman emperor, a grandson of the sister of Julius Caesar. Named at
first Caius Octavius, he became on adoption by the Julian gens (44
B.C.) Caius Julius Caesar Octavianus (Octavian); Augustus was a
title of honor granted (27 B.C.) by the senate.
Augustus, grandnephew of Julius Caesar, 27 B.C.–A.D. 14
Tiberius, stepson of Augustus, A.D. 14–A.D. 37
Caligula, grandnephew of Tiberius, 37–41
Claudius, uncle of Caligula, 41–54
Nero, stepson of Claudius, 54–68
Galba, proclaimed emperor by his soldiers, 68–69
Otho, military commander, 69
Vitellius, military commander, 69
Vespasian, military commander, 69–79
Titus, son of Vespasian, 79–81
Domitian, son of Vespasian, 81–96
With Nero the Julio-Claudian line ended. There was a brief struggle
(see Galba; Otho; Vitellius) before Vespasian (A.D. 69–A.D. 79)
became emperor. Under him his son Titus destroyed Jerusalem (A.D.
70); Titus then briefly succeeded his father. After his mild, rather
benign rule, his brother Domitian (A.D. 81–A.D. 96), a despot and
persecutor of Christians, gained the empire.
Revelation & Daniel notes: He *(the horn) is number 8 and number 11
seems to allude to what 8 represents in scripture, which is a new
beginning. See all the verses about the year of jubilee to see this
plainly taught. Jesus rose on the first day, which also is the
eighth day of week, which made our new beginning possible. The
question is: what is beginning a new? What Nero had at first begun.
Let’s look at this logically harmonizing Revelation 17:9-11. Many
will seek to apply this to the Papacy (Popes), but notice he says
this beast already was and history shows their was no Pope then. In
fact it wasn’t until ( A.D.) that the idea of a Pope was introduced
as a result of Roman influence and so the apostate church redesigned
itself like the Roman empire. The structure of it was the Pope
(church emperor) then arch bishops etc etc. Now to what it actually
means: 5 are fallen means Nero is dead since he was the 5th to
reign. In the year of the 4 Emperors Galba, Otho and Vitellius
didn’t stay in charge long enough to even mention in history. The
logical conclusion is that the vision counts Vespasian as the 6th
king, (“which now is”-this places the date the Revelation was
written between 69-79 A.D.) The 7th that was yet to come was Titus
who fits the profile of the one behooved to stay only a little while
having served from only 79-81 A.D. This leaves his younger broth
Domitian is said to have been murdered by those he was closest to.
Suetonius in “The lives of the caesars” says, “His corpse was
carried out on a common bier by those who bury the poor”. So this
persecutor was murdered by those closest to him and then treated
like a poor person when he died despite his claim to be deity. This
is an extreme illustration of the truth that says, “God is not
mocked”. Suetonius also adds that the senators, “were so overjoyed,
that they raced to fill the House, where they did not refrain from
assailing the dead emperor with the most insulting and stinging kind
of outcries. They even had ladders brought and his shields75 and
images torn down before their eyes and dashed upon the ground”
Daniel 7:8) Eric Fugett says, “Daniel also had a dream about Nero in
Daniel 7:8 and was given an interpretation that said he would
displace three of the ten kings. This is a reference to Azizas being
replaced upon his death by Soemus his brother, Aristobulus the son
of Herod being entrusted with Lesser Armenia, and Agrippa parts of
Galilee, Tiberias, Tarichae, and Julias (Josephus, The Antiquities
Book XX, Chapter 8, Section 4). “ I disagree. The 11th is said to
come up in the midst of the other horns or in the same kingdom.
These two visions are two different veiws on the same event. John’s
vision just excludes the 3 that don’t matter since they played no
significant part. In the vision the 3 kings that existed before he
was in power are plucked up by the roots (those who could continue
the julian Dynasty). This sounds exactly like what happened in the
year of the 4 emperors, which ended (plucked up) the Julian Dynasty
so that it never grew to power again and made it possible for th
I believe the big mix when your trying to find out the identity of
the beast is the fact that you count Julius caesar as an emperor
when he was not so, but was in fact just a dictator.
Note: Those who would make the 8th to be
vespasian would have to prove he was a persecutor of the saints and
neither he nor his oldest son Titus fit that profile. To make
vespasian the one who overcomes the saints means that the saints are
the Jews he warred with and not the church. If we are reading the
same bible we will have to agree that a Jew is not one who is of the
flesh, but is one of the heart.
You offered the idea of their being two kingdoms
based on Galatians 4, but it says one was cast out not co-existing
as God's people. Colossians 1:13-14 tells us that when we are in him
(i.e. through baptism-Romans 6 and Galatians 3:27) we are in his
kingdom. The former was cast out to have no part with the freed
woman (church). Your veiw says that Israel didn't get cast out, but
Paul disagrees. If I am misunderstanding something please explain it
Date: 26 May 2007
I'm sorry I took so long to address this. I just recently tore my
patella tendon in my knee playing football with 2 of the five kids
we have been buys trying to adopt.
I thought I answered the question of the order of caesars with
Suetonious' count. He lived back then so if he counted Juliu as the
first then why shouldn't we? Second of all, just like at the end of
the forty years of wandering after leaving Egypt, old Israel had
essentilally been cast, the then old Israel of the first century was
cast out at Jesus' second coming. I don't understand why you are
saying that I said they weren't cast out. Revelation 21 says that
there is a new Jerusalem now.
I do believe that Vespasian was the 8th king. However, Nero was
obviously the 6th, & and the one who came up in the midst of the
other 10 (providence leaders) & displaced 3 of them. You can read
Josephus & others on this.
Date: 10 Jun 2007
I have just been examining the interesting material on your site, in
particular your material on the Beast with Ten Horns I am most
surprised that you align this with the past when if so, we would now
all be under Theocratic Rule by the Israel of God. (Revelation
Also, for this to have taken place there would now be no aging and
no death in particular.
This kingdom actually arrived in the heavens in 1914 and in the same
manner as he cleansed his Father’s earthly Temple after his
anointing at the age of thirty, Jesus as the leader of the Israel of
God has now cleansed his Father’s heavenly Temple during the thirty
years of war in the heavens and war on the earth [1914-1945] casting
Satan down to the vicinity of the earth and thereby initiating the
beginning of the ‘last generation’.
Regarding the Beast with Ten Horns, may I offer the following:
May I suggest here as history informs us, that the march of world
powers is as stated in John’s day:
1. Egypt [fallen] single ruler (one horn)
2. Assyria [fallen] single ruler (one horn)
3. Babylon [fallen] single ruler (one horn)
4. Medo-Persia [fallen] dual rulership (two horns)
5. Greece [fallen] single ruler (one horn)
6. Rome [one is present] dual rulership (two horns)
7. Anglo-American [yet to come]dual rulership (two horns)
Total (ten horns)
As for the wild beast that was, but is not and yet is in Revelation
17:8, this is the ‘little horn’ which springs from the other ten in
Daniel 7:8 and the beast which springs from the other seven in
Today it is simply a matter of history that the Anglo-American world
power took the lead in advocating creation of the League of Nations
[that was] which went into oblivion [but is not] and [yet is] as it
emerged as the United Nations —an ‘image’ of the world's
In 1960 it was realized that the Roman Catholic Papacy was religious
and not political and therefore not as some have suggested, this
‘eighth’ world power. Instead it is one of the most prominent
leaders of Babylon the Great [the world empire of false religion]
which has a [figurative] kingdom over all the kings of the earth.
(Revelation 17:5, 18) This is the woman who sits upon the
scarlet-coloured wild beast which is the composite image of the one
which ascended out of the sea of humanity.
An interesting parallel here is that just as the ‘little flock’
(Luke 12:32) of anointed-ones ‘The Christ’ (Colossians 4:3;
Galatians 3:29) forms the composite body of the Israel of God, so
‘all’ the world’s religions form the composite body of the ‘harlot’
Babylon the Great. (Revelation 17:1-5)
It is therefore this scarlet-coloured wild beast the ‘eighth’ world
power which after using her for their own ends, finally ravages and
destroys this Babylonish Empire including the Roman Catholic Papacy.
(Revelation 17:16; 18:2-4) Very soon now this will all take place as
we draw near to the Great Tribulation.
If you go to www.squirespublishing.co.uk Home Page you will see the
link for the visual of The Beast.
You might perhaps be interested in viewing this due to the fact that
unlike most of the pictured portrayals of this beast on the net,
this gives the whole portrayal in brief but accurate detail.
I look forward to your reply on this Wayne.
Pathfinder in Truth and Hope,