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AD70 Dispensationalism: According to that view, AD70 was the end of 'this age' and the start of the 'age to come'.    Those who lived before AD70 could only 'see in part' and such, lacking the resurrection and redemptive blessings which supposedly came only when Herod's Temple in Jerusalem fell.    Accordingly, AD70 was not only the end of Old Testament Judaism, but it was also the end of the revelation of Christianity as seen in the New Testament.

HYPER PRETERISM

"Full preterist" material is being archived for balanced representation of all preterist views, but is classified under the theological term hyper (as in beyond the acceptable range of tolerable doctrines) at this website.  The classification of all full preterism as Hyper Preterism (HyP) is built upon well over a decade of intense research at PreteristArchive.com, and the convictions of the website curator (a former full preterist pastor).  The HyP theology of final resurrection and consummation in the fall of Jerusalem, with its dispensational line in AD70 (end of old age, start of new age), has never been known among authors through nearly 20 centuries of Christianity leading up to 1845, when the earliest known full preterist book was written.  Even though there may be many secondary points of agreement between Historical/Modern Preterism and Hyper Preterism, their premises are undeniably and fundamentally different.

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING MATERIAL HAS BEEN CLASSIFIED AS "HYPER PRETERIST"



Systematic Hyper Preterism
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Hyper Preterism: Defining "Hyper Preterism"- Criticisms from the Inside - Criticisms from the Outside || Progressive Pret | Regressive Pret | Former Full Preterists | Pret Scholars | Normative Pret | Reformed Pret | Pret Idealism | Pret Universalism

William Bell
Max King
Don Preston
Larry Siegle
Kurt Simmons
Ed Stevens
 

SOME DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES OF SYSTEMATIZED HYPER PRETERISM

It is important to keep in mind that many ideas and doctrines full preterism appeals to - such as the complete end of the Old Covenant world in AD70 - are by no means distinctive to that view.   Many non HyPs believe this as well, so one need not embrace the Hyper Preterist system in order to endorse this view.   Following are exceptional doctrines which, so far as I've seen, are only taught by adherents of Hyper Preterism.:

DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES TAUGHT BY STANDARD FULL PRETERISM

  • All Bible Prophecy was Fulfilled By AD70

  • Atonement Incomplete at Cross ; Complete at AD70

  • The Supernatural Power of Evil Ended in AD70

  • The Spirit of Antichrist was Destroyed in AD70

  • "The Consummation of the Ages" Came in AD70

  • "The Millennium" is in the Past, From AD30 to AD70

  • Nothing to be Resurrected From in Post AD70 World ; Hades Destroyed

  • The Christian Age Began in AD70 ; Earth Will Never End

  • "The Day of the Lord" was Israel's Destruction ending in AD70

  • The "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ Took Place in AD70-ish

  • The Great Judgment took place in AD70 ; No Future Judgment

  • The Law, Death, Sin, Devil, Hades, etc. Utterly Defeated in AD70

  • "The Resurrection" of the Dead and Living is Past, Having Taken Place in AD70

  • The Context of the Entire Bible is Pre-AD70 ; Not Written To Post AD70 World

DISTINCTIVE DOCTRINES TAUGHT BY VARIOUS FORMS
(under construction)

  • Baptism was for Pre-AD70 Era (Cessationism)

  • The Lord's Prayer was for Pre-AD70 Era (Cessationism)

  • The Lord's Supper was for Pre-AD70 Era (Cessationism)

  • The Holy Spirit's Paraclete Work Ceased in AD70 (Cessationism)

  • The Consummation in AD70 Caused Church Offices to Cease (Cessationism)

  • The Resurrection in AD70 Changed the "Constitutional Principle" of Marriage (Noyesism)

  • Israel and Humanity Delivered into Ultimate Liberty in AD70 (TransmillennialismTM)

  • The Judgment in AD70 Reconciled All of Mankind to God ; All Saved (Preterist Universalism)

  • Adam's Sin No Longer Imputed in Post AD70 World ; No Need to be Born Again (Preterist Universalism)

  • When Jesus Delivered the Kingdom to the Father in AD70, He Ceased Being The Intermediary (Pantelism/Comprehensive Grace?)

  • The Book of Genesis is an Apocalypse; is About Creation of First Covenant Man, not First Historical Man (Covenantal Preterism)

 

"They who pierced Him" and the Horrible Death of Jesus

By MS Cheo., Singapore
(16 Jan 2004)
Rated: PG

Introduction

When I was a futurist, I was troubled by the interpretation given to “every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him” in Rev 1:7. It was reckoned to be refering to the Jews, who though did not drive the nails into Jesus’ hands and feet, or pierced His side, was deemed to be the ones doing it, being the people indirectly responsible for it. And not only that, it applies to all their subsequent generations to come, until the coming of Jesus in the soon future. When I became a preterist, I was then still troubled as the explanation was still the same, except that it only get accredited to that generation living in A.D. 70. I just was not totally convinced as such reckoning is appropriate. I can accept if it was “they who crucified Him”, as they did asked Pilate for that judgment. But when it focused down to the minute act of piercing with the nails or spear, it was recorded that the Roman soldiers did both the nailing and piercing, not the Jews (John 19:23).

An alternative answer came to me when I appreciate the manner of Jesus’ death. All Christians are aware that Jesus was crucified and died on the cross. However, few Christians are aware of the horrible sufferings Jesus endured and the actual ghastly death He had. This article explores this “unknown” death of Jesus which brings to light significance to the mystic phrase in Rev 1:7, “they also which pierced him”, as well as a few other hard-to-understand verses, thereby strengthening our understanding of God’s Word.

Years ago, as a young Christian, a question did cross my mind, “what was so remarkable about Jesus’ death on the cross? Were there not 2 other men with Him who also died in the same manner? In fact, they suffered at least one or two excruciating hours longer such that their legs need to be broken (ouch!) to hasten in their death. More over, crucifixions were common then and thousands had been crucified, both before and after!” Sure, I am aware it was God-in-Man who was crucified, but still, it baffled me – it seems too “quick and easy” a common death.


Major Prophecies concerning Jesus’ death

And I have wondered also – why did Jesus screamed out in Matt 27:46, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” No, He did not for a moment doubted The Father as some may have believed. I believe He was calling attention to all people (then and now) to the psalm in the Book of Psalms wherein the prophesied ordeals He had just endured had been fulfilled!

Psa 22:1 …. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring? …. ….
Psa 22:12-13 Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round. They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Amidst its poetic phrases, familiar words of its literacy and fulfillment were conveyed to us by the gospels’ writers – the mocking and cursings by the Romans and by the Jewish populace as in “they gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.”, the crucifixion as in “they pierced my hands and my feet”, and others like “they part my garments among them” (Matt 27:35), not to mention Psalm 22:8 and Matt 27:43 – “He trusted in God; let him deliver him now”.

But, what about “I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd… I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.”? Don’t they mean a thing? Many commentaries explain “all my bones are out of joint” as due to the stretching-hanging effect on the cross. But it is “all bones” (or at least, most of it). How about “My strength is dried up like a potsherd” (broken pottery) and “I may tell (count) all my bones: they look [and] stare (back) upon me.”? Gory detail which seems to indicate a badly battered and broken body with exposed bones!

Many Christians are well aware of the “Suffering Servant” prophecy in Isa 52:13 to 53:12, as many of its verses were interpreted by the Apostles as applying to the Lord.

Isa 53:3-9 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. …. ….

Yes, Jesus was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities: chastised for our peace and with his stripes we are healed. Was it just those “simple” slapping, mocking and scourging?. Frankly, they do not seem to inflict as serious an injury as commentators and expositors (and movies) want it to be. If Jesus was that “bloodied”, do you think the Roman soldiers would be dividing his blood-stained garments and casting lot for the seamless coat? Really, how many of us (I included) have paid attention to what extent He was prophesied to be wounded, bruised and chastised?

Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

If we are to take the prophecy of the “Suffering Servant” as having happened in the person of Jesus, we should also believe that He was marred beyond recognition for our transgressions and iniquities – in fact, for the sins of the whole world!


What manner of death was required?

Yet, when we read the gospels, we are oblivious of any severe sufferings other than some slapping and mockings, the crown of thorns, the scourging, and the crucifixion – things that were unlikely to cause His visage and form to be “so marred more than any man”. Did the Bible reveal or hinted what manner of death Jesus died of? I believed so – a death demanded by the Old Covenant in order for Jesus to die for the sin of the whole world.

Let re-examine some clues in the gospels. What was the crime that Jesus was accused of?

Matt 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Matt 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? Behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
Matt 26:66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify [him], crucify [him]. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify [him]: for I find no fault in him.
John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Yes, under the Laws of the Old Covenant, the penalty for blaspheming the name of God is death. But what kind of a death “he ought to die”?

Lev 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] ;all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.

It was death by stoning! And not only ALL the congregation, but even “strangers” were encouraged to take part in the stoning. When Jesus was first presented to Pilate, note what was said to be (soon) fulfilled.

John 18:31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
John 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

Pilate asked the Jew to judge Jesus according to their Old Covenantal laws. But the Jews knew then, it was not lawful under Roman rules, to put anyone to death without proper authority being given. Verse 32 does not signify that Jesus would just be condemned to die, but what (kind of) death Jesus should died of! As the context implies, if it was to be according to “your law”, the Laws of Moses – then it is death by stoning! Later, Pilate announced his judgment.

John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify [him], crucify [him]. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify [him]: for I find no fault in him.
John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
John 19:8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;

Pilate had earlier told the Jew to judge Jesus according to their own laws. The Jews told him that the crime deserved a death penalty, thus forcing him to give judgment and mete out the appropriate punishment and perhaps delegate the authority to do so. And he did, saying “Take ye him, and crucify” – meting out capital punishment by crucifixion. But the Jewish authority did not stop there. Since Pilate had already asked them to judge according to their laws, and have just given them the authority to do so – “take ye him”, they now informed him that the crime was blasphemy, requiring that Jesus also to be stoned to death according to their laws (beside crucifixion). Perhaps that is why it was recorded in verse 8 – “Pilate was more afraid” after hearing the retort – he has allowed something more than he bargain for! Nevertheless, the final outcome was that he relented.

Luke 23:24 And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required.

And what had they required (requested)? - That Jesus be judged according to their laws, that He be crucified and that Barabbas, a real criminal be freed instead. Perhaps that was why Pilate washed his hands of the final ending, strange indeed for someone who had initially authorized, “Take ye him, and crucify” (nailed and hung).


It’s death by stoning, by hanging and by crucifixion!

John recorded in his gospel of several occasions whereby Jesus was stoned for alleged blasphemy, though He did escape from it then.

John 8:58-59 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

John 10:30-31 I and [my] Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

John 11:8 [His] disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?

If the people and the authority then seek to stone Him (many times), what do you think they would do with a “criminal” already being authorized to be put to death by the Roman authority? What do you think the mob of frenzy people who had shouted “blasphemy” and “crucify him” would do to Jesus for the 6 hours He was hanging on the cross “like a sitting duck”? By the requirement of Lev 24:16, “ALL the congregation shall certainly stone him”!

Six hours of stoning! Yes, that certainly does explained how Jesus’ “visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men”. May be not every second of it, but now and then, barrage of sharp stones were thrown at the Figure on the cross as He got wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities. And it was getting more gory and bloody by the minute. Pretty soon, Jesus was, as prophesied, “I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; … they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.”

Blood flowed like water, bones knocked out of their joints, sharp stones piercing His hands and feet (and not just the 3 or 4 nails), flesh (and muscles - “My strength”) were torn out like pieces of broken pottery (potsherd). Soon bare bones could be seen (tell, or counted), and as so graphically put by the Psalmist, “they look and stare at me” – protruding out! At the end of this, His visage and form was indeed marred more than any man.

That was the horrible death that Jesus suffered. Perhaps, now we understand better that Jesus was no weakling when He asked of the Father, “let this cup pass from me”. He was aware that it was no ordinary death that He was to suffer – not by mere crucifixion that thousand of others had already been through – but much more! He was to be crucified and being stoned while hanging on a tree! An excruciating 6 long hours as bit by bit, His body was broken and torn to shreds.


The breaking of Bread – “broken for you”

It now makes better sense the powerful association spoken by our Lord Jesus when He initiated the Lord’s Supper.

Matt 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Matt 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1Cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the [same] night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Cor 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Cor 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.
1Cor 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

The bread that Jesus took must had been unleavened bread (as it symbolize His Body, a sinless Body), probably a hard piece of bread shaped like a disc. And when it was broken, flakes of it would also splintered off - "My strength (flesh and muscle) is dried up like a potsherd". Jesus' body was literally broken for us and His blood was spilled like a slaughtered lamb. And it was not just the blood that oozed out when those few nails were driven into His hands. But with every stone hurled at Him, blood was shed and sprinkled all over (Isa 52:15?). It was no wonder that even He, our Lord, was impelled to request, “take away this cup from me”. And note, when the Lord’s Supper was taken, it was to be “in remembrance of me”, to “show (the manner of) the Lord’s death” (and not to “show the Lord had died”).

It also explains why our Lord died 2 hours earlier than the 2 criminals crucified together with Him at the same time. Miraculously, while His body (flesh and muscles) was broken, none of the bones were broken even though they were showing out (from the torn flesh).


The Marks of the Lord Jesus and Paul

Paul made a strange statement to the Galatians in his epistle.

Gal 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

Surely, Paul did not have the nail marks on his hands. So, what similar marks could he have on his body as have Jesus, to make it unique and uncommon?

Act 14:19 And there came thither [certain] Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew [him] out of the city, supposing he had been dead.

The extent of the stoning almost killed Paul. It should not surprise us then, that those serious bodily injuries, though had healed, would leave their nasty marks behind. And Paul was not ashamed to say, “for I bear in my body the marks (plural) of the Lord Jesus.” They are no ordinary “whip marks” as some explained. Perhaps, beside the “thorn in the flesh” (probably a result from the stoning), Paul might have been partially blinded in that stoning incident as he had just told the Galatians earlier:

Gal 4:12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I [am]; for I [am] as ye [are]: ye have not injured me at all.
Gal 4:13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, [even] as Christ Jesus.
Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if [it had been] possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.


“They who pierced Him” – Identified!

Now, it makes real good sense that “they [also] which pierced him” were the ones volleying stones at Jesus while He hang on the cross – probably the bulk of the Jewish population then in Jerusalem for the Passover. They had killed the symbolic passover lamb as well as the Passover Lamb Himself! It makes good sense that many of them and their children lived to “see” Jesus coming back forty years later in their generation, in A.D. 70 according to their rejoinder – “His blood be on us, and on our children.”

Matt 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but [that] rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed [his] hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye [to it].
Matt 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us, and on our children.

This also harmonizes well with Rev 1:7 and Zech 12:10:

Rev 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds (tribe) of the earth (land) shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

 


 

Handling Objections

1) Why then did the Jews shouted, “crucify him”?

Yes, why then did the Jewish authority and the people shouted, “crucify Him” and not “stone Him to death”? I think it is probably because it was then one of the recognized and common capital punishment to put one to death publicly. Moreover, it had just been authorized by Pilate. But the Pharisees and Sadducees needed to dispel the popularity of Jesus among the “faithful” lots (Matt 27:18). They needed Him to die as a blasphemer of God and be executed by all in accordance with the requirement of the Mosaic Laws!

Lev 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] ;all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, ....

Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deu 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.

So, we know that the penalty for blasphemy is death by stoning. And with Deut 21:22, it further adds that if such a person be put to death – “thou shall hang him onto a tree”!

And it was a cross on a tree that Jesus was hanged and crucified on – if we believe the writings of the Apostles. Jesus was nailed onto a crosspiece (a stake itself) which was nailed onto a living tree, or maybe tied onto a tree, for the body to be lowered more easily later. (It was not onto a “t-shaped” plank-on-plank as believed and seen in many churches today – at least it was not for Jesus – but such discussion is outside the scope of this article).

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Act 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took [him] down from the tree, and laid [him] in a sepulchre.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

The wages of sin is death. As such, by the Laws, all of us are put to death and are to be “hangeth on a tree” (Gal 3:13). But Christ Jesus had already redeemed us, having actually undergone that punishment on our behalf.

And as Deut 21:23 tells us, that the body shall not remain all night upon the tree but should be buried that same day. And we can read in John 19:31 that this requirement was carried out.

John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away (for burial).

As the “High Day” (a Feast day holy day, being the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) sabbath was approaching, meaning no work can be done, it thus required that the bodies be brought down to be buried, as it was forbidden by the Laws to leave the bodies through the night (or worst, throughout the whole Sabbath duration!).


2) It was pierced by one Roman soldier!

Does not the Bible record that it was a Roman soldier who pierced His side? Yes, the Bible does record it that way accurately.

John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
John 19:35 And he that saw [it] bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
John 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Although it was a Roman soldier who literally pierced Jesus as he hung on the cross, this act of piercing has been argued to be reckoned onto all subsequent generations of unbelieving Jews (for those who believe that Christ will be coming soon in the near future), or to the generation of Jews in A.D. 70 (for the preterists who believe that Christ had returned in A.D. 70) as they are (or were) deemed to be the true murderers of Christ, hence the phrase “they shall look on him whom they pierced” and “those who pierced him” in Rev 1:7. But, wait a minute! The act of piercing did not kill Jesus. He was already dead!

What most people missed, because of the same English word used, was that in the same passage, the English word “pierced” are from 2 different native Greek words. Why? Because the two piercings were not related to one another.

John 19:34,37 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced [#3572 (nudged)] his side, … They shall look on him whom they pierced [#1574 (thrust though)].

It was ONE soldier, yet the other was recorded as “THEY pierced”. And in Rev 1:7, the same word was used [Strong’s #1574 (thrust though)]. And consistently, it was always “they pierced” – in Psa 22:16 and in Zech 12:10 (though now, it was in Hebrew).

But, could it be that it was referring to the soldiers when they nailed Jesus to the crosspiece? Possible, but then, these Roman soldiers (being of different legion and under different general and reign) were unlikely to be around in Jerusalem to “see” Jesus coming back with flaming fire in A.D.70 (for preterists), or anytime now, almost 2,000 years later (for futurists). They have to be in Jerusalem in order for them to "look upon me whom they have pierced" as required by Zec 12:10. They had to be Jewish!

Let me repeat, the act of piercing by the Roman soldier did not kill Jesus. He was already dead then! When the soldiers were breaking the legs of the criminals, were not the Jewish people still around watching the happenings? Sure they were, looking on Him who they have just pierced with their salvo of stones, fulfilling the prophecy literally then (in John 19:37), and again in A.D. 70 (in Rev 1:7).


3) Why then, was this stoning not mentioned in the Gospels?

Yes, it is indeed mystifying that none of the gospel writers mentioned this stoning of Jesus explicitly while He was on the cross. In fact, except for John who wrote about the stoning of the adulteress, and the few occasions whereby Jesus had to run away from being stoning or to avoid being stoned, none of the other 3 Gospel writers mentioned of any actual stoning incidents at all.

But John did mention of this stoning and that this stoning fulfilled the prophecy of Zechariah 12! However, all of us simply skimmed over the verse without further thought, being influenced by “doctrine of men”.

John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
John 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Many of those who crowded around to watch the crucifixion also must have took part in casting stones at Jesus. They believed Jesus to be a blasphemer who had made Himself to be a Son of God, hence they mocked, reviled and uttered, "If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross" (Matt 27:39,40). In fact, I would be very surprised if they did not cast stones at Him then and there (as required by their Mosiac's Law)!

Can the act of a single gentile Roman solider be considered as fulfilling the prophecy of Zec.12? Is that how prophecies are (or can be reckoned as being) fulfilled? The “they” in Zec. 12:10 plainly refers to the Jewish people from the context of it. Can that single act by a gentile soldier be deemed as being performed by the large Jewish populace (and all their subsequent generations)? If that how one interprets scriptures? Of course not! “They shall look on him whom they pierced” means just that. In fact, the prophecy of “a bone of him shall not be broken” takes on a magnitude more when we are aware of the horrendous sufferings that Jesus undergone.

Perhaps it might be something the Gospel writers felt too offensive to mention in any detail of such gory and unpardonable brutality, and was better to leave out? Perhaps, it might be due to practices and customs, or it was forbidden to publish any capital punishment carried out using local laws (and not Roman’s) then? But John did, howbeit with subtlety; calling attention to the event without making it too obvious, just like he did for Nero with the 666 riddle.
 


 

Conclusion

But prophecies of Christ’s death and the description of it therein (especially Isa 52:13-53:12, Psa 22 and perhaps even Psa 38) in the Old Testament, and clues from the gospels and epistles in the New Testament give enough evidence to arrive at the above conclusion regarding the manner of Jesus’ death.

Jesus died for both Jews and Gentiles. It is very possible that Jesus bled to death as He was inflicted by the continuous stoning while hanging on the cross. Remember Matt 26:27,28 - "... Drink ye ALL of it; For this is my blood ... shed for many ...". He paid our sins with the spilling of His blood (and sprinkling – as each stone impacted onto an open wound). The “Fountain of Living Waters” died after saying “I thirst” (as all the living waters wash away the sins of the world). When the soldier pierced His side, what dripped out was dead blood and dead water – as He was already dead, having completed the great mission He was send by The Father to do – to be the Savior of the whole world (1John 2:2, 1John 4:14). Jesus died under the Mosaic Laws – stoned and hung on a tree. He also died under the Gentile law – then, by the crucifixion – nailed to a cross.

Being myself a preterist, thus believed that the preterists are right in understanding that “they who pierced Him” were the Jews living in A.D. 70 - but for the wrong reason. It was not the piercing of nails into His hands or into His side by the Roman and accrediting to the Jews. Jesus did returned in A.D. 70, and was “seen in the clouds” - (according to preterist’s understanding, as symbolic of “divine judgment”) – in that same generation and “seen” by those very people who pierced Him, yea, even by Caiaphas the high priest (Matt 26:64) and by their children!

 


Background:
The manner of Christ’s death was not of my own discovery. I read and agreed with most of the 21 pages of Chapter 22 titled, “The Surprising Cause of Jesus’ Death” in the book, “Secrets of Golgotha, 2nd ed” by Dr. Ernest L. Martin (Associates for Scriptural Knowledge [ http://www.askelm.com ]). Some of my understandings were gleamed from the brilliant studies and researches he had published. However, Dr. Martin was a futurist (but supported that the Book of Revelation was written around A.D. 60). He believed that the Apostles did initially believed that Jesus was to return in their generation, but changed their expectation around A.D. 63 “when they began to realize that the second coming of Christ was now far into the future”! (taken from the Exposition titled, “Progressive Revelation in the Apostolic Period”) As such, the linkage between the manner of Jesus’ death and the identification of “they who pierced Him” was not explored by him.

This association comes to me as my belief in preterism increases. I hope the above analysis will bring forth further harmony of the Bible, and (finally) identify the real “they who pierced Him” to be, or at least, the real reason behind. Though I am a preterist, it may not necessary reflect the view and belief of other preterists. Nevertheless, please share with me your thoughts, reasons and arguments if you think I am going onto a loony path. (MS Cheo, Singapore [mscheo@mindexsoft.com])
 

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Date:
30 Nov 2003
Time:
08:16:39

Comments

One of the greatest obstacles to a correct understanding of the NT is preterists' inability to understand the meaning of Lk. 21:22 and "this generation" in Mt. 24:34.


Date:
30 Nov 2003
Time:
19:44:33

Comments

There is two sides to a coin. But it can only land on one side. One of the greatest obstacles to a correct understanding of the NT is Futurists' inability to understand the CONTEXT of Lk. 21:22 and "this generation" in Mt. 24:34. ====== Luk 21:20-24 And when YE shall SEE JERUSALEM compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let THEM which are in JUDEA flee to the mountains; and let THEM which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not THEM that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE. And THEY shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and JERUSALEM shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ====== Mat 24:33-34 So likewise YE, when YE shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto YOU, THIS generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. ====== Locality - Jerusalem and Judea (not ALL the World). Players - THEM (not ALL in the world) - "This people". ==== And has not it been fulfilled that Jerusalem had been trodden down by Gentiles since A.D. 70. If for the past 1,900 years was not "times of the Gentiles", then when is it to be? === MS Cheo.


Date:
30 Nov 2003
Time:
22:28:06

Comments

You don't understand that the natural things involving OT, natural Israel and Canaan were merely TYPES of far greater spiritual things involving NT, spiritual Israel (Christ and the church) and the world. Lk. 21:22 refers to the natural fulfillment of the last of those typifying natural things written in the OT about natural Israel, namely, that Christ-rejecting nation's destruction in AD 70. The first event in the nation's parenthetic history, the slaying of the natural lambs (Ex. 12), was a TYPE of the slaying of Christ and the last event in that history, the nation's destruction, was a TYPE of the future destruction of the world (Rev. 20:7-15). The things written in the OT (Lk. 21:22) were not SPIRITUAL fulfillments - they were merely natural types. Preterists have confused a mere type with Christ's parousia, the monumental spiritual event that occurred at the end of the true first century in fulfillment of the typifying universal flood that occurred at the end of Noah's last 100 pre-flood years. "This generation" in Gen. 7:1 - Noah's typifying last 100 pre-flood years - was a type of "this generation" in Mt. 24:34 - the 100 years of the first century (as adjusted for the four-year error in our calendar).


Date:
02 Dec 2003
Time:
02:03:53

Comments

Herein show inconsistency in applying TYPES in the above comment. ====== If "natural Israel" = spiritual Israel (Christ and the church) and "Canaan" = the world, then how is it that "the NATION's destruction, was a TYPE of the future destruction of the WORLD". We now have the NATION of "natural Israel" = "the World"! ====== It was stated that "Lk. 21:22 refers to the natural fulfillment of the last of those typifying natural things written in the OT about natural Israel, namely, that Christ-rejecting nation's destruction in AD 70.". So, is the writer one of the futurists who believes "this generation" does refer to the generation of A.D. 70? But that along the line, after Luk 21:24 - "And THEY shall fall by the edge of the sword" in A.D.70, suddenly jumped 2,000 year or more into the future "An then shall THEY see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." (Luk 21:27) THEY sure have long life. = = = = = = Not everything or happenings in the OT should be spiritualized to have a counterpart or TYPE in the NT age. The natural lamb was killed. Likewise was the spiritual Lamb. So, if natural Israel was merely a TYPE depicting spiritual Israel, are we then to draw the parallelism that as the natural Israel was destroyed (people and land of Jerusalem) and the remnant scattered (around the wrold) in A.D. 70, the spiritual Israel will likewise be destroyed (Christians and New Jerusalem) and scattered (around heaven or the universe?)? It is more like the natural Israel was an ANTI-type of the spiritual Israel. ====== If Jesus said, "Verily I say unto YOU...(Luk 21:32)", and Paul said to his readers of his eplistle, "For this WE say unto YOU BY THE WORD OF THE LORD, that WE which are alive... (1Th 4:15)", then I will not doubt the word of the Lord or His word to His Apostles that "This generation" means just that same generation who were alive then. === MS Cheo.


Date:
02 Dec 2003
Time:
19:39:50

Comments

1) OT, natural Israel had two ages that were separated by the 70 years of captivity in Babylon. Forty years before the end of natural Israel's second age (its destruction in AD 70) the new, spiritual and eternal Israel appeared in the moment of Christ's resurrection in the spring of AD 30. 2) The natural world had two ages that were separated by the universal flood. "A thousand years" (a period of unknowable length) before the end of the second age of the world (its future destruction, as described in Rev. 20:7-15) the new, spiritual and eternal world of Rev. 21 and 22 appeared in the moment of the resurrection of "they that were Christ's at his parousia" (1 Cor. 15:23) in autumn of AD 96. Try diagraming the two sets of ages - the first age of the natural world starting with the typifying resurrection of Adam and Eve from the death in the garden and the second age of the natural world starting with the typifying resurrection of Noah and his family (the faithful remnant of the world) from the death in the flood - and the first age of natural Israel starting with the typifying resurrection of Israel from the death in the Red Sea and the second age of natural Israel starting with the typifying resurrection of the faithful remnant of the nation from the death in Babylon (the typifying resurrection of Eze. 37).


Date:
03 Dec 2003
Time:
19:57:10

Comments

I noticed you typified many events, although they were never explained why such typifying were necessary. Are you expecting readers to accept it without questioning? And when questioned, like mine above in its beginning paragraph, they were ignored. ======== You said the first age of natural Israel was started by "typifying resurrection of Israel from the death in the Red Sea". On what authority or which scripture(s)? If I were to typify, I would start with Abraham to which the promise of the Seed was given. Or even typifying using the person Israel by whom the natural Israel was named after. === If the captivity of 70 years marked the end of their first age, then you are ignoring a more severe captivity of them for 430 years as SLAVES in Egypt - they were already know as "children of Israel" - all 12 tribes (Ex 1:1)! ======== The spiritual age of Israel started in AD 30, overlapping a period of only 40 years before the natural Israel age ended long ago in AD 70. But the 2nd age of the world, which began 4000 ago after Noah's Flood, is still awaiting for its end, with a super long period of overlapping with the spiritual world age which supposedly began in AD 96. ======== You stated that the 2nd age of natural Israel ended in AD 70. So, when did their 3rd age started? In 1948? Who are the Israelites today living in Israel and all around the world? ======== You used various typifying (which I could not see consistency or the rationale for it). You stated AD 96 without any proof - biblical or historical. (I found that if Christ resurrected in AD 30, and His Parousia was to be in AD 96, a typifying of such belief will make the 66 years interval looks "demonic" [as in 666]!) === Why not put out you belief and reasoning as an article in this site to proof your case and share your insights, rather than putting a few sentences here and there insisting that Christ's Parousia was in AD 96? === MS Cheo.


Date:
04 Dec 2003
Time:
08:09:21

Comments

OT Israel did not become a nation until the occurrence of the typifying events in Ex. 12, at which time the sacred or religious calendar was created, which showed the birth of the NATION in the month of Abib or Nisan (in the spring). Up until then, the calendar in use in the OT was the civil or world calendar, which showed the birth of the WORLD (Gen. 1) in the month of Tishri (in autumn). For your starting point, get the following two facts firmly fixed in your mind: 1) The birth of the merely typifing, OC, natural Israel occurred in the spring, at the time of the natural fulfillment of the first 3 feasts of Lev. 23 - the slaying of the natural lambs, and the hasty departure from Egypt, and the nation's safe emergence from the Red Sea. 2) Therefore, the birth of the true, fulfillment, NC, spiritual Israel occurred in the spring of AD 30, at the time of the spiritual fulfillment of the first 3 feasts - the slaying of Christ, the true Lamb, and Christ's hasty burial, and Christ's safe emergence from the tomb. That's just one of the many reasons why preterists are profoundly wrong in claiming that NC, spiritual Israel did not appear until autumn of AD 70. If you can accept those very basic and elementary facts, you should also be able to understand (maybe) a lot of other basic facts - such as the fact that the 430 years in Egypt that preceded the slaying of the typifying, natural lambs were fulfilled by a similar period of 430 years that preceded the slaying of the fulfillment, spiritual Lamb.


Date:
04 Dec 2003
Time:
14:22:55

Comments

Christ came to make all things new - and that included not only the hopelessly fallen, natural Israel but also the hopelessly fallen, natural world. Not new through natural means but new through spiritual regeneration - spiritual re-birth. Early in his gospel, Matthew got the attention of his first-century readers by stating that Jesus was the true Israel !! Compare Mt. 2:15 with Ex. 4:22 and Hos. 11:1. Thus, when Jesus died, Israel died and when he was resurrected, Israel was born again - as the new, spiritual and eternal Israel. The 430 years that preceded the slaying of the natural lambs were fulfilled by the 430 years from Malachi to the crucifixion in the spring of AD 30. Christ was killed by the world, i.e., descendants of all 3 of Noah's sons participated in his crucifixion (Simon of Cyrene was a descendant of Ham). Natural Israel's 70 years of natural captivity in natural Babylon were fulfilled in the first century by spiritual Israel's (the church's) 70 years of spiritual captivity - namely, the 70 years from Christ's anointing as God's true King of the world (his baptism) in autumn of AD 26 to the death of Domitian, Satan's false, usurping king of the world, by the sword (Rev. 13:10), in the day and hour of Mt. 24:36 (5th hour of the morning on September 18) in autumn of AD 96. To try to understand that spiritual captivity read my 12/2&3/03 comments attached to the nearby article "The Fate of the Wicked." The world's true, spiritual King was anointed in AD 26 but his coronation did not occur until his parousia at the end of the century - until then the world, including the church which was in the world (though not of the world), was in spiritual captivity under the satanic SPIRITUAL dominion of Rome (no freedom of religion - enforced worship of the emperor). And BTW, your comment about 666 is close to the mark. That number refers to the 66 years and 6 months from Christ's resurrection to the death of Domitian - the time between the true King's resurrection and ascension in the spring of AD 30 until his coronation at his parousia in autumn of AD 96 - the time during which mere men, the first-century emperors of Rome, were blasphemously seen as the God and Savior of the world.


Date:
04 Dec 2003
Time:
20:31:51

Comments

I don't think (all) preterists claim spiritual Israel did not appear until AD 70. Spiritual Israel began on the day the Holy Spirit in-filled the Apostles and 120 disciples on Pentecost in AD 30. ====== You have stated that end of natural Israel's second age was at its destruction in AD 70 (2nd Dec comments). Then you stated above, "Jesus died, Israel died" - but that was in AD 30! If the spiritual Israel was born in AD 96 to rule the natural world for "a thousand years" (a period of unknowable length) before the end of the second age of the world (Rev 20:4,6 with Rev 5:10), was there a natural typifying of natural Israel ever ruling the 1st world age? ====== You inaugurate nations based on calendar, or by typifying events. And for Israel, based on Ex 12:1, 1st Nisan marked the birth of the nation of Israel as 1st Tishri was for the World. Then you have the birth of Israel spread over 3 feasts (Passover, Unleavened Bread and Pentecost), which occurred over a period of over 2 months! Then you typified their hasty departure out of Egypt to Christ's death and hasty burial. So, natural Israel died just after they were born on the 1st Nisan/Passover/Unleavened Bread. They were then born again when they past through the Red Sea. If the 70 years Babylonian captivity was used to mark the death of natural Israel, should not the Egyptian captivity of 430 years into slavery be used consistently instead of using their hasty departure to freedom? During the 430 years that preceded their hasty departure, the Israelites were slaves in the land of Egypt, without temple, in foreign land or without kings. During the estimated 430 years from Malachi to the crucifixion, the Israelites had their own temple, in their own land and have their own kings! ====== You freely used events to typify and justify your belief, often not with consistency - as you don't seem to be interested in answering questions that have been raised. If such are to be "basic and elementary facts", thanks, but no thanks - I will rather be without. The only reason I am responding is to pin-point the inconsistencies and fallacies of such wanton typifications. === As I have said, publish and share your belief and the rationale behind them - just ensure you qualify that they do not necessarily represent other preterist viewpoint. === MS Cheo.


Date:
05 Dec 2003
Time:
08:28:47

Comments

That's the way I hoped and expected you'd react so I don't have to waste time sharing the other 95% of the truth with you. Stick with your preterist beliefs - but please remember that preterism shares dispensationalism's ugly and demeaning Zionist belief that the Christ-rejecting Jews continued to be God's chosen people even after they murdered their Messiah - that God was not finished FOREVER with the fallen, natural nation of Israel after the resurrection of his Son as the true, spiritual and eternal Israel. Also, if you want to believe that Titus, the son of the Roman emperor (in AD 70), rather than Christ, the Son of God (in AD 30), opened the way into heaven, that's your problem.


Date:
05 Dec 2003
Time:
12:14:16

Comments

Does the author of this article understand that, because Christ came not only as the Savior and King of Israel but also as the Savior and King of the world, he fulfilled the seven days of the feast of tabernacles (Lev. 23:34) during the seven days starting on Palm Sunday in AD 30, and that his resurrection on the following Sunday fulfilled the eighth-day feast of Lev. 23:36? Does he understand the relationship between the "consume and destroy" of Dt. 7:22,23 and Dan. 7:26 and 2 Thes. 2:8? With respect to the NT fulfillments of OT types, has he noticed that after the slaying of the natural lambs, OT Israel was taken to the tomb of Joseph (Ex. 13:19) and after the slaying of Christ, the true Israel, he was taken to the tomb of another Joseph? Does he realize that if Christ's parousia occurred in autumn of AD 70, Nero was not killed at that time, as required by 2 Thes. 2:8? - whereas Domitian WAS killed in the day and hour of Christ's parousia in autumn of AD 96. Does he understand how the 40 days at the start of Christ's 3 1/2-year first presence (Mt. 4:2) and the 40 days at the end of that first presence (Acts 1:3) and the 40 years AD 30-70 relate to OT Israel's typifying 40 years in the wilderness?


Date:
06 Dec 2003
Time:
20:21:26

Comments

Answering 05 Dec 12:14 = "preterism shares dispensationalism's ugly and demeaning Zionist belief that .... God was not finished FOREVER with the fallen, natural nation of Israel" ==== ==== Rom 11:1-7 = "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? GOD FORBID. God hath NOT cast away his people which he foreknew. ... Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. ... What then? ISRAEL hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, ... ==== Rom 11:11-15 = "I say then, Have THEY stumbled that THEY should fall? GOD FORBID: but rather through THEIR fall salvation is come unto the GENTILES, for to provoke THEM to jealousy. Now if the fall of THEM be the riches of the WORLD, and the diminishing of THEM the riches of the GENTILES; how much more THEIR fulness? ... For if the casting away of THEM be the reconciling of the WORLD, what shall the receiving of THEM be, but LIFE from the DEAD? ==== Rom 11:25-32 = "For I would not, brethren, that YE should be ignorant of this mystery, lest YE should be wise in YOUR own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to ISRAEL, until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in. AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: .... As concerning the gospel, THEY are enemies for YOUR sakes: but as touching the election, THEY are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as YE in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through THEIR unbelief: Even so have THESE also now not believed, that through YOUR mercy THEY also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded THEM all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon ALL. ==== MS Cheo.


Date:
06 Dec 2003
Time:
22:28:53

Comments

Oops! The previous comment-answer above is for 05 Dec 08:28. ======== Now, the answer to 05 Dec 12:14 ==== No, the author certainly does not understand the ways and manners you are typifying numbers, dates and events. While I understood the significance of the 7 feast days and how they relate to Christ, I certainly could not find any rationale for you to typify a 7 days Feast of Tabernacles into a 'palm sunday' (which is not a recognized feast day then at all or even a sabbath day). The "branches from the trees" and GARMENTS lined the way for the King (red carpet welcome) but the "branches of palm trees" (Lev 23:40) used in Feast of Tabernacles were for roofs and coverings when they built their booths to stay in for 7 days (Lev 23:42,43). And how did a 7th month Festival of Booths get thrown into the 1st month that even overlapped Passover and Days on Unleaven Bread? ======== Moses did visit Joseph's grave to DIG OUT his dried decayed BONES O-U-T OF his own grave. Jesus' FULL body, which did not see decay, was PUT I-N-T-O someone's grave (who happened to name 'Joseph', like Jesus' human father - a common Jewish name!). ==== You seemed to be "full of understandings", dropping comments like "preterists have never been able to grasp the very basic and elementary fact..." and "Preterists vastly underestimate, or are incapable of understanding...", "preterists, like futurists and historicists, haven't the foggiest idea...", etc. I have appealed to you to unselfishly share your "understanding" instead of beating cymbals and gongs in various articles with such remarks. Lock yourself in a room and spent the next 40 hours or 40 days to write out your intelligence in words and publish it here. You will be rewarded for your effort. If you are right, peradventure God might use it to open some eyes. If you are wrong, and God be willing, comments from other readers might be used to open your eyes. ===== Peace be onto you. ==== MS Cheo.


Date:
07 Dec 2003
Time:
03:43:45

Comments

What it all comes down to - and what preterists fail to understand - are two momentous spiritual facts. 1) A new, spiritual and eternal ISRAEL (Christ and the church) appeared in the moment of Christ's resurrection (spring AD 30), and although the old, natural, Christ-rejecting Israel deserved to be destroyed at that time, it was granted 40 years of grace prior to its destruction. 2) A new, spiritual and eternal WORLD (the eternal dwelling place of Christ and the church on the earth - Rev. 21 and 22) was created in the moment of the resurrection of "they that were Christ's at his parousia" (autumn AD 96), and although the old, natural, Christ-rejecting world deserved to be destroyed at that time, it was granted a symbolically described "thousand years" of grace prior to its future destruction (as described in Rev. 20:7-15). There were two Israels during the 40 years AD 30-70, one spiritual and eternal and the other natural and doomed, and there are two worlds during this present "thouand years," one spiritual and eternal and the other natural and doomed. Paul made it clear that natural things, the things which can be seen, are TEMPORARY, and only spiritual things, the things which cannot be seen, are ETERNAL (2 Cor. 4:18) - but preterists look only at the world which can be seen and leap to the erroneous conclusion that it will continue forever.


Date:
07 Dec 2003
Time:
06:26:12

Comments

And your erroneous belief that Ro. 11:26 refers to Christ-rejecting natural Israel rather than to spiritual Israel, the church composed of believing Jews and Gentiles, is easily refuted by looking at the OT types (which, of course, preterists hate to do). First-century, natural Israel is identified as spiritual Egypt (Rev. 11:8) and unless you believe that all of the typifying natural Egypt of the OT was saved, you can't claim that all of spiritual Egypt (natural Israel) was saved (or will be saved, as the equally deluded dispys believe). By definition, all of spiritual Israel, the church, is saved but as for all but the remnant of natural Israel Paul said their eyes would be darkened and they wouldn't be able to see the truth "ALWAYS" (Ro. 11:10).


Date:
07 Dec 2003
Time:
08:54:24

Comments

Next you'll try to tell me that Adam, Noah, Moses and Cyrus were not types of Christ.


Date:
07 Mar 2004
Time:
12:32:18

Comments

I like your difination of pierced in the side, however I believe that the {they} are all people starting from the time of his death untill the time of his return.Reason; to stare means to have effect on a persons emotions, to look; is to view something in belief or unbelief, therefore every living person that has heard of Jesus has pierced him in their belief by sin, or in their unbelief by sin. to pierce is to cause to be thrust thru or cause one`s emotions to be moved by staring in unbelief. The scripture says that Jesus was put to an open shame, the soldiers gambled for his garments and vesture. Surly he was hurt more than the stones or nails could do, he was hurt emotionally as well, for his disciples and mother and all looked upon him as he hung naked upon the cross.He suffered what no man should have to suffer, and he did it because of love for his creation, for he made all things and all things were made for his pleasure. May God the Father bless and use this page you have listed for his glory and increase you in all you do, and the blessings of Jesus sermon on the mount persue and overtake you. I love you.


Date:
07 Mar 2004
Time:
13:16:32

Comments

Ms Cheo, I see you are being attacked for your understanding of the scriptures! Have no fear, whatever you do people will attack you for what you believe or not believe.The bottom line is that you believe in Jesus as being the begotten Son of God and that he is who he say he is! That he is the saviour of humankind. Trust in Jesus and you shall be saved.Read Titus 3:9 and 1 Timothy 1:4 Godly edifying those that have ears to hear, and depart from justifying yourself to those that want to argue.


Date:
07 Mar 2004
Time:
13:25:27

Comments

A mans worst enemy is those of his own household. Why is the so called church having problems within itself. Is this the true church? Why are the church divided? The for has gotten inside the chicken house. Stop it people, pray for one another, if you do not like what you hear, why try to correct it. God do not need anyone to defend him, for it is He himself that teach us and not man.You need not that man should teach you, but the Holy Ghost himself shall teach you all things. In all you do get understanding and with understanding add to it LOVE!!!!


Date:
30 Mar 2004
Time:
22:27:50

Comments

LOL! The more you get shot at, the more I'm convinced that you are correct. There seem to be two types of people in the world: those who are not afraid to ask why and those who are not interested in that question. I am glad to see you among the former. Steve Smith


Date:
06 Apr 2004
Time:
18:05:52

Comments

Hi Steve, I believe there are 5 types of people. 1) Those who do not believe in God. 2) Those know believe in other gods. 3) Those who believe in God but do not read the Bible but just absorbed whatever they were told from the pulpit. 4) Those who believe in God, read the Bible but depend on the pulpit or learned men to tell them what the Bible really mean. 5) Those who believe in God, read the Bible with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures (as they do not contradict) whether those things they were told or read were true. ==== MS Cheo.


Date: 23 Oct 2005
Time: 19:36:34

Comments:

Hi...Does anyone know where I can find a Preterist church in Singapore to join? I did a search on alltheweb.com and found this website. My email address is activerelease@yahoo.com. Many thanks!!

Tze-wei Lim
Singapore

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