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The Great Falling Away Has Begun

By Bands Report
2003


The Naked Preterist - "Although there - is - no such word or term as "preterist" in any dictionary:  The preterists could not have possibly chosen a better name for their demonic cult. "  Preterist: A theologian who believes that the prophecies of the Apocalypse have already been fulfilled. (Webster's Dictionary - http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=preterist)


There's a movement in America today that is hell bent on destroying The Word of God Almighty by first fabricating,  then spreading,  utterly false doctrines that are based on just one singular grain of truth, specifically designed to trap YOU as a Christian into questioning your faith. And to cause you to believe in your heart that God is a liar, through a professionally designed system of indoctrination.

Moreover, because of the manner in which this false doctrine is being carried out,  it is by far the greatest threat to Christianity ever.  It is in fact being perpetrated by experts who have been trained at creating, then disseminating,  totally misleading,  utterly false information ,  that seeks to cite various verses of the Bible: Then perversely twist them to serve their demonic cause,  and quietly undermine your belief in God's Word;  and in God Himself,  through a proven method of brainwashing !!!

This movement against Christianity is called "preterism".

The term "preterism" refers to a system devised for the purpose of contriving ways to convince people to - NOT - accept The Lord at His Word;  Through a very concerted and well orchestrated system of - undermining - everything HE has said. By citing only in part things He INDEED said !!

While most people teaching false doctrines are out to convert you to "their" way of thinking (which is still totally wrong):  The "preterists" are out to cause you to forfeit your eternal soul.   ...Literally !!!

The primary doctrine of  "preterism" is based on Jesus' use of the phrase,  "this generation will not pass".  The 'preterists' will falsely claim that He was referring to the people to whom He was speaking to at that point in time (2,000 years ago).   Which at first blush will not sound like a big deal to the average listener.  They will then follow that up by referring to you as a believer in "futurism", calling you a "futurist",  because you believe that Christ is coming in the future.

They  will then ridicule you for not believing (their doctrine) that you are - NOW - living in Jesus' kingdom.  Because, according to them.  Jesus' Kingdom began two thousand years ago.

However, as they progress with teaching you this obvious lie,  the real purpose of their barrage is that once they can get you to accept - this - lie:   You must then accept their false doctrine that NONE of God's Word was ever meant  to be taken literally.  That every verse in the Bible was meant to be accepted - BY YOU - as only "figuratively" speaking.  Which in fact, means that NOTHING in the Bible has any real meaning at all !!  ..  And THAT is in fact what they would like you to believe !!!

They will even stage well practiced arguments over this issue:  One of them saying Christ said He would return during the lifetime of the audience He was speaking to.  Citing Jesus' statement "This generation will not pass ..."   While the other will boldly claim that "God is a liar, because if Jesus did as He said, and returned while that generation was still alive 'THEY demand to see Him'.

Thereby,  BOTH of these actors are instilling in your mind that GOD is a liar !!!

And THAT is intended by them to eat at your faith for the rest of your life.

Moreover, while others teaching false doctrines will try civil ways to convince you.  Preterists will literally pursue you everywhere you go,  and literally try to brainwash you out of your faith in God.

Before I continue, I must first tell you that I will later disprove every word of their entire doctrine. By clearly documenting that what Jesus actually said was that "This GENEA will not pass ...".  And that the Greek word "GENEA" very emphatically means "OFFSPRING",  or otherwise  "FUTURE", generation.  Therefore Jesus could not have - POSSIBLY - been referring to the generation to whom He was speaking.

But for now, its more important that you know how they operate,  so you'll know what to expect when you encounter them.  More specifically, you'll know to just laugh at them,  then get away.

DO . NOT ..  try to debate them.   You are literally inviting demons into your life,  if you do.

And although you will no doubt see their teachings as a common fraud. By nature of the fact that you allow yourself to read what they say:  Your faith in The Lord will be shaken, and it will never be the same.  Theirs is literally a form of professional brainwashing.

Because,  the problem with "preterists" is not that its difficult to document their teachings to be an outrageous satanic lie:

The problem with "preterists" is the fact that they are so utterly - demonic - that once they make any type of contact with you;  They'll refuse to let go of you until they've literally brow-beaten you into submission;  And undermined every tenant of your faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus, The Risen Christ:  Thereby costing you your Eternal Soul !!!    While in your heart, all YOU have done is try to explain to them what GOD actually said.  ... When in fact, they do not - CARE - what He said.

Think I'm exaggerating ?    ...Well,  I am not !!
 

Here's exactly how their scheme works:

Allow me to document for you the manner in which the "preterists" conspire among themselves to literally - devour - every singular principle of your faith.

The following is an exact quote of a method advanced by Harley L. James;  who, happens to be co-host of the syndicated radio program specifically intended to spearhead the preterist movement.  This radio program is titled the  "Beyond the End Times"  Preterist Radio Broadcast,  it originates from Southern California.  But in order to not promote it I will not give any details such as time etc.

The purpose of my providing the following, is to demonstrate just how conspiratory, as well as outright hostile,  and deceptive,  the "preterists" are,  in their attacks on believing Christians.

Now quoting one of the preterist's national leaders:

"I (Harley L. James) invite all of you preterists who have a decent grip on the preterist view,  to join me at the Yahoo Premillenial club, where I will initiate a - frontal assault - on our "futurist" believing brothers and sisters. So I'm inviting you to come and provide ground support.  Let's go to the Yahoo Premillenial club and present the Preterist view in such a way that our "futurist" believing brothers and sisters cannot escape."    ( Harley L. James then went on to add the following )

"When engaging a futurist,  keep this little saying in mind:

People who believe something they can't back up are gullible.  (so we can tell them anything)

People who argue something they can't back up are deceived.   (very easily deceived)

People who teach something they can't back up are a cult."  (referring to Christianity as a cult)"

(end quote)

And immediately after Harley James gained access to post in the Premillenial Prophecy Club:  The preterists known as a554111,  johncalvin111, zebra7207, and others who posted under each other's alias names,  participated in providing Harley James with the "ground cover" he requested, by:

Providing every type of distraction you could imagine aimed toward any person with the ability or knowledge to dispute their demonic claims:  While their leaders concentrated on destroying the Christian beliefs of all members who lacked the wherewithal to dispute them.

And after that,  the person known as johncalvin111,  stated in the preterist's own club that as for he himself,  HE didn't like doing what he had done in the "premillenium" club the previous evening.

Thereby proving that even the ones doing it - KNOW - its wrong to do so.

When on the internet H.L. James uses the name and profile - live2heal, 41, male,  where he claims to be living in The Kingdom of God.   See:   http://profiles.yahoo.com/live2heal

Also take note of his favorite quote as stated therein:

"Either Jesus was correct about the time of his return,  or Christianity is a hoax."
 

Anyway, as a pretty much standard practice,  the "preterists" will join almost - any - type of forum that purports to have anything at all to do with Bible Prophecy.

They will then either abruptly, or gradually,  become very abrasive in their efforts to brainwash weaker members of the group to accept their obviously false "preterist" doctrines.

And while their "leaders" are brainwashing the weaker members of the group:  By way of a well oiled plan:  Subordinate members of the invading preterists will  "stay in the face" of any believer who resists accepting their cult;  Until those who refuse to accept it will get fed-up and leave the forum all together.  Leaving the weaker members behind,  at the "preterists" mercy.

At which time, the "preterists" will take over the forum, and run it as though it were their own.  Just as they literally took over the following yahoo forums and now run them as their own;  Deceiving everyone who "drops in" to believe they are an End Time prophecy group.  These are but a very few of the forums "preterists" have literally taken over, and now run them as though they are theirs.

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/bibleprophecies

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/christianclub

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pnns/
 

The really sad thing is that, from that point on,  anyone who "drops by" will be subjected to the utterly deceptive teachings of some preterist,  who will appear to the new member or guest to be an expert on Bible Prophecy: When the truth is, they will gradually become indoctrinated by the "preterists" into the obviously false doctrine that "all prophecy was fulfilled in the year 70 A.D. with what they deceptively claim was the destruction of Jerusalem."    (which, btw,  was not destroyed until the year 135 A.D.)  

What do YOU think ?

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Date:

05 May 2003

Time:

03:27:28

Comments

Sometimes all I can say is, "this guy is crazy."


Date:

05 May 2003

Time:

08:46:44

Comments

BEYOND THE ENDTIMES - 740 AM - Saturdays: 4:00 - 4:30 www.beyondtheendtimes.com


Date:

05 May 2003

Time:

08:59:36

Comments

If it is of God, you will not put a chink in its armor, it will pass the test of the times. If it is not of God, God will take care of it in his own time. This person needs to let God do the judgment of people, not himself. paul


Date:

05 May 2003

Time:

11:07:50

Comments

Matthew 27 24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!" 25All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!" 26Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

Babylon is not America or Iraq Babylon was Jerusalem 70AD

Revelation 11 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Revelation 18 20Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you.' " 21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: "With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again. 24In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth."

Revelation 17 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

1 Thessalonians 2 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

 Matthew 23 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Luke 13 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Luke 21 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.


Date:

05 May 2003

Time:

11:19:26

Comments

This author is a blatant LIAR. People like him keep me praying that Gods judgment will be swift on these teachers of false doctrines and lies against brothers in Christ. In their zeal to defend the indefensable, they become utter fools and worse twisters of the scripture than those THEY claim are masters of such. Nate


Date:

05 May 2003

Time:

11:21:54

Comments

Dear Bands Report, H.L. James here. I remember running into you in the newsgroups and I see you have no better argument against the Preterist view today than you had five years ago. I also see you still have no verses of scripture to support your allegations that the Preterist view is Satanic. As anyone who knows me will tell you, I use the Scriptures extensively to support the Preterist view. When I teach, I don't even use notes. That's how well the Bible supports the Preterist view. In fact, each week, from a radio show that reaches hundreds of thousands of listeners (KBRT AM740 in Southern California at 4:00pm saturdays), Ken Davies and I routinely put forth the same challenge: we challenge any pastor, teacher, or any other theologian, to refute the preterist view from scripture. Guess what? Nobody can. You want to know why after over a year of challenges, there has not been one person (with the exception of a noble attempt by Gene Cook) who is willing to actually take the challenge (including Paul McGuire and others)? Because the Preterist view is IMPOSSIBLE to refute using God's Word. That's because it IS God's Word. I notice that in your article above, you don't quote even one verse of Scripture. Here's why you didn't quote Scripture: the Preterist view is wholly supported by scripture (I hereby formally challenge you to prove me wrong on this). Please read your article again and notice how your argument's lack of Biblical support actually helps show that the Preterist view is a Biblically solid view. If you could refute the view (after 5 years of chasing me around), you would simply make a statement, then quote from the Bible to support your claim. You could stop the spread of the Preterist view by simply showing FROM THE BIBLE why it is not supported in scripture. Since Preterists are usually from the Reformed camp, and since reformed theologians are big SOLA SCRIPTURA proponents, we tend to use the Scriptures EXTENSIVELY to back up our arguments. You'll even notice how partial preterists use the scriptures to defend the partial view. You'll also notice how they put "gaps" of time between verses to avoid having to come to the clear conclusion they would be forced to reach if they didn't put those "gaps" in God's Holy Word. I often ask myself, "Why would someone want to change God's word?" There is a ton of material here on this archive to help you better understand the Preterist view, and after over five years of crossing paths with me, you should be well-versed by now on what I believe and have a very sound argument to refute it. Bands, attempting to "scare" people will only do just that, it will "scare" them. It would be better if you just carefully show from Scripture why people should be "scared." Remember, cults "scare" people, too. They scare their followers into running away from the very people who could help them understand the truth. They cannot use scripture to support their cultic views (i.e. futurism) so they simply use scare tactics. This is unfair to God's flock, dishonest and deadly. One thing I must scold you for is your attempt to slander me by claiming that my intentions are anything other than Godly. If you want to refute my logic, by all means do so (That's a formal challenge by the way). But please... personal attacks on my intentions? Let's rise above that. One final thing. This archive has thousands of articles which CLEARLY outline the Preterist view using scripture after scripture. In your above article, you make reference to the use of the term "generation" and claim that the entire Preterist view is based on this. You then make a feeble attempt to refute the entire position by erroneously assigning a different meaning to the Greek word for generation. If it were that easy to refute the Preterist view, I would NOT be a Preterist. Read the articles on this site, learn the arguments, learn the logic behind the arguments, study the scriptures used in the arguments, learn the language conventions and cultural perspective behind the scriptures used in the arguments, and then... refute EVERY premise clearly and concisely. You see Bands, between you and God... I will choose God and His Word over you and your opinions every time. It's nothing personal. I love you as myself, but I hold God above myself and therefore I hold God and His Word above you or any other man. I love God with all my heart, soul, mind, body and strength. He is my Lord and my God and what He says is the final word. I will not sell God out for any inventions of man. I will not follow the "Rapture" view just because it is popular. It is not Biblical, nor can it be supported from the Bible. The futurist view makes Jesus out to be a liar and a fraud and I have a serious problem with anyone who does that... don't you? (smile) Nice to see you still in the fight. With love, H.L. James


Date:

05 May 2003

Time:

11:59:21

Comments

This fellow's grasp of truth is demonstrated in the very last statement that Jerusalem was not destroyed until 135 AD. Such ignorance of history has clearly bled over into ignorance of scripture. The second glaring issue is his warning not to debate the preterists no matter what!! Patently, this is very good advice for those wishing to retain a futurist eschatology! It has been demonstrated over and over that when preterism is given a public polemic platform, futurism is demolised. So, from a futurist perspective, he has given good advice. If you want to maintain your futurism, don't debate preterism. Of course, my response would be, if futurism is the truth, it has nothing to hide from public confrontation, and should be able to route the heretics! Wonder what this fellow would have thought of Luther's 95 thesis for public debate??? Hmmm. Don K


Date:

05 May 2003

Time:

12:58:18

Comments

Well put Don... Well put... H.L. James


Date:

05 May 2003

Time:

15:35:04

Comments

Oh! Help! The big bad preterists are after me!


Date:

05 May 2003

Time:

17:12:39

Comments

"By clearly documenting that what Jesus actually said was that "This GENEA will not pass ...". And that the Greek word "GENEA" very emphatically means "OFFSPRING", or otherwise "FUTURE", generation. Therefore Jesus could not have - POSSIBLY - been referring to the generation to whom He was speaking.".... Luke 17:25 "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation/GENEA.".... Which generation/GENEA was Jesus rejected by???????? I wonder who's right, hmmmm? Corey, a friend of H. L.'s


Date:

05 May 2003

Time:

20:04:20

Comments

LOL! To say that 'genea' means offspring is to say that Matthew 24:34 is saying a huge group of people will die ;) Here's what I mean: <p>Verily I say unto you, This generation ('if it means offspring') shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (Matt 24:34)<p> <p>Basically, that means after 'all these things' are fulfilled that offspring will pass away! It sounds antisemetic if 'generation' is a reference to 'race' or 'offspring'.


Date:

06 May 2003

Time:

05:38:50

Comments

You are about 1,930 years or so late in the event of the great falling away. Please, just think on when Paul wrote this warning! How does Preterism or Fulfilled Eschatology fit the terms of 'myths' 'fables' and 'old women's gossiping'? I am a 68 year old retired (resigned) Baptist pastor and for over forty years I wandered in the Wilderness of Dispensationalism and confusion. It was with detailed study of the Scriptures and secular history that I realized Jesus came as he promised he would do. PLEASE take time to 'examine the Scritures'. Read Cook's work, "The Christ has come" which is on the www.preteristarchive.com Web site. Bob usmc1div@earthlink.net


Date:

06 May 2003

Time:

10:29:20

Comments

"The term "preterism" refers to a system devised for the purpose of contriving ways to convince people to - NOT - accept The Lord at His Word; Through a very concerted and well orchestrated system of - undermining - everything HE has said. By citing only in part things He INDEED said !!" Oh, so now anytime someone wants to quote Jesus they have to include EVERYTHING that He said? Of course, this author is guilty of the very thing that he claims preterists engage in: "Before I continue, I must first tell you that I will later disprove every word of their entire doctrine. By clearly documenting that what Jesus actually said was that "This GENEA will not pass ..."." That's only PART of what he said, O Hypocrite. Scott


Date:

06 May 2003

Time:

19:10:17

Comments

Sadest article I've read in years. I encourage this author to do some more homework. His understanding of preterism is lacking much not to mention his love for the saints.


Date:

14 May 2003

Time:

16:35:11

Comments

Not considering myself to be "preterist." If God's Word was only ever meant to be taken literally, how does one explain the death of Onan, or why Adam had to protect the garden, or the reasoning behind layout of the tabernacle. Hmm... There's literally(no pun intended)hundreds if not thousands more examples to numerous to list here. Most "Christians" would say either "what does that have to do with my salvation?" or "it's not important." To that I'll say, "Why is it mentioned the Bible?"


Date:

09 Jun 2003

Time:

17:34:53

Comments

Any system of belief that discourages its adherents from thinking, asking questions, or listening to other viewpoints is fostering closed-mindedness and intolerance. Any system of belief that uses threats of demonic influence to keep adherents from investigating other viewpoints is fostering ignorant superstition. Rob in WI


Date:

01 Jul 2003

Time:

13:23:39

Comments

I'm not what would be concidered afull Preterist, but after reading Mr.Philip Mauros' "The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation" and "Things Which Soon Must Come To Pass"; I have found such light in so simple terms as to make all the Futurist views appear to have come from the Dark Ages (where I might add they did...being first put forth by a roman priest after the council of Trent); in order to combat the great truths put forward by the newly reborn Protestants.


Date:

06 Jul 2003

Time:

22:15:51

Comments

To all you "full preterists" out there: The current twist on preterism runs into all sorts of problems, most troubling being the logical fallacies. Ask yourself, if the final judgment has already come and gone, then why should a Christian believe in "full preterism"? since there would be no further reckoning for NOT believing it. In other words, "full preterism" is self-refuting. Not in any particular order, other examples: (1) An open-ended Rev. 20:15 implies that verse was not fulfilled (in the sense no future events satisfy the conditions contained therein), whereas a fulfilled Rev. 20:15 leaves the unbeliever forever unpunished, with no final vanquishing of evil. (2) Believers may mess up on secondaries, or maybe even primaries, but in "full preterism" never face accountability for lapses, NOT EVEN FOR REWARDS. (3) The universe remains in groaning and trevail forever, even though the laws of thermodynamics, whose basis is the Scripture, guarantee the physical end of the universe at a particular, finite moment in time. (4) Bodily resurrection becomes just so many words. (5) Clement, and doubtless other believers, lived across the 70 A.D. divide. (6) From a commentary: "Against the Preterist view it is urged that prophecies fulfilled ought to be rendered so perspicuous to the general sense of the Church as to supply an argument against infidelity; that the destruction of Jerusalem, having occurred twenty-five years previously, could not occupy a large space in a prophecy; the supposed predictions of the downfall of Jerusalem and of Nero appear from the context to refer to one event, but are by this scheme separated, and moreover, placed in a wrong order; that the measuring of the Temple and the altar, and the death of the two witnesses cannot be explained consistently with the context." Although your "show" has given preterist answers to most of these points, I have never heard you provide any answer to "... the supposed predictions of the downfall of Jerusalem and of Nero appear from the context to refer to one event, but are by this scheme separated, and moreover, placed in a wrong order ..." (7) From the same commentary: "[Preterism] is the favorite interpretation with the critics of Germany ..." (and all that entails). Although your "show" raises interesting points, more charitable would be to wait to say all other schools of thought are wrong until you have presented your case as absolutely watertight and airtight to even the most devoted skeptic. I have heard your "program" for some time and read your site(s) and believe, from a purely objective basis, as much as possible, you have a lot of work left, if your case can even stand under a much more rigorous inspection.


Date:

10 Jul 2003

Time:

23:30:53

Comments

ofcourse evil is still not vanquished!!! after that verse you read that outside of the NEw Jerusalem there are sinners who are outside of the city while the gates of the city are still open to anyone. and the thing about the universe being demolished, read eccl 1:3-4 and reconcile your refutation. also i can tell you probably lack a serious knowledge of the pret belief.


Date:

13 Jul 2003

Time:

10:09:25

Comments

With respect to the writer who commented "ofcourse evil is still not vanquished!!! after that verse you read that outside of the NEw Jerusalem there are sinners who are outside of the city while the gates of the city are still open to anyone. and the thing about the universe being demolished, read eccl 1:3-4 and reconcile your refutation. also i can tell you probably lack a serious knowledge of the pret belief." First, the writer missed the main point, namely, under "full preterism" a believer need not believe the "full preterism" scheme, since the final judgment had already come. So "full preterism" is self-refuting. Second, the writer stated, "... outside of the NEw Jerusalem there are sinners who are outside of the city while the gates of the city are still open to anyone," without stating what verse this is. Where, for example, did author find support that "the gates of the city are still open to anyone"? Shades of endless "second chances" for the unrepentant sinner! That evil should not be finally vanquished is against the blessed hope for the believer in the afterlife, stated dozens of times throughout Scripture, e.g., the picture of Eden restored, without the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, in Rev. 22. Third, the writer inflamed by the "universe being demolished" statement. I stated "... the laws of thermodynamics, whose basis is the Scripture, guarantee the physical end of the universe at a particular, finite moment in time ..." to anticipate such rhetoric. The new heavens and a new Earth require God's specific intervention, WHICH HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. Who seriously believes that we currently see new heavens and a new Earth? Also, Eccl. 1:3-4 says, "What does man gain by all the toil at which he toils under the sun? A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the earth remains for ever." What the first sentence, which is verse 3, has to do with the claims of the writer is not apparent at all. And to say, "... the earth remains for ever ... ," especially considering the authorship was in B.C. times, does not imply that the CONDITION, even the ESSENTIAL CONDITION, of the earth remains for ever. Otherwise, the laws of thermodynamics would mean nothing at all, nor would many verses, both OT and NT, INCLUDING THE WORDS OF JESUS, indicating radical changes that God, who made the universe and its laws, will make to the Earth in the future. While the events of the seventh and eighth decade A.D. were large in scope, they do not compare to the cataclysms prophesied in Matt. 24, Mk. 13, Lk. 17, Lk. 21, NONE OF WHICH HAVE HAPPENED YET. Fourth, the writer's last sentence seems to be cheap shot, since it contains no specifics. The writer has not produced specific argumentation to the other points made, such as Clement living across the 70 A.D. divide and all the while never mentioning anything in 70 A.D. resembling what "full preterists" present as truth.


Date:

09 Aug 2003

Time:

12:33:13

Comments

This is interesting. He uses no verses, gives no answer to preterist verses, and uses 0 logic to support himself. This is all about baselessly bashing preterism. I wasted the little time it took to read that and I'll never get it back! Funny how preterists are all about sola scriptura and everyone else opperates off a paradime.


Date:

13 Aug 2003

Time:

18:54:26

Comments

One at a time, let's examine the comments of whoever wrote the comments on 09 August 2003 at 12:33:13. (1) "This is interesting. He uses no verses ..." Are we going to split hairs over whether I cited chapters or verses? Note the references to chapters Rev. 22, Matt. 24, Mk. 13, Lk. 17, Lk. 21. You want verses? Then take the whole chapters! (2) "... gives no answer to preterist verses ..." Really now! Nearly the whole set of comments I made addressed the only verses the author cited, namely, Eccl. 1:3-4. (3) "... and uses 0 logic to support himself." Clearly a baseless charge. The whole set of comments I made is logic, through and through. (4) "This is all about baselessly bashing preterism." No, it is all about showing the self-refuting nature of "full preterism" (which the author has repeatedly failed to answer). (5) "I wasted the little time it took to read that and I'll never get it back!" I'm so, so, sorry the author's time is so valuable that time was also expended by the author to answer, if we must use the word, my comments. (6) "Funny how preterists are all about sola scriptura and everyone else opperates off a paradime." Not counting the two misspellings, the above claim is itself unsubstantiated. Funny how the author once again failed to answer the fact that "full preterism" is self-refuting. Several times already I have shown why this fact is so, while also displaying at least half a dozen other facts "full preterists" cannot, in truth, quell either. Dismiss whomever the author will, the objective concerns I raised remain unanswered.


Date:

28 Aug 2003

Time:

13:29:24

Comments

Today, for the first time in my Christian life, I heard about the "preterists." I read some of their propoganda while trying to find out exactly what they believed, and I was appalled! This definitely is satan inspired and is very, very disconcerting. I never realized or heard of such a belief as this. Thank you for your website and for this article (which I will keep). God Bless! Jesus is coming back!


Date:

29 Aug 2003

Time:

09:06:27

Comments

For those who might fall (as did Eve believe the serpent in the Garden of Eden) for the lies of the preterists (evil ones who would deceive the very elect, if possible), I highly recommend they read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis (a former atheist). You have to be a fool to believe the nonsense spewed from the mouths of the preterists.


Date:

02 Sep 2003

Time:

00:43:13

Comments

I wish I had the clarity of mind to see the fallacies that the writer pointed out. It is certainly true that if the judgement and second coming has come and gone, then, indeed so has Christianity. There is no further need for it. That alone, without looking any further into the Preterest scheme, should be enough for anyone to abandon Preterism. Thank You, writer, for your insightful information. I think I have just been blessed. -Mark


Date:

12 Sep 2003

Time:

11:51:56

Comments

To all my fellow preterists: Truth be told, preterism is not essential for any form of "salvation", correct? Then, why do we feel the need to answer the critics? We does anyone feel the need to hear what they have to say? I for one do not care one iota what someone who denies the Lord's Word thinks about me. One of the futurists who replied here recommends that we read CS Lewis. I have. Have you? Do you know that our dear brother Jack (that's CS's nickname) stated that the apostles were WRONG in their pronouncements of the Lord's soon return in that first generation? Did you know that Jack Lewis denied the inspiration of scripture by claiming that the LORD HIMSELF was wrong about His soon return in the first generation? You probably don't. That would require that you THINK FOR YOURSELF. I care not what any of you think of me. I care what God thinks of me. And thanks to the LORD JESUS CHRIST, God thinks of me as righteous. You dear people are satans, accusers of the brethren, did you know that? It is not we who are of satan, since we accuse no one. You are. good day, ed burleybunch@comcast.net


Date:

15 Sep 2003

Time:

22:35:36

Comments

Weeks ago I challenged "Ask yourself, if the final judgment has already come and gone, then why should a Christian believe in 'full preterism'? since there would be no further reckoning for NOT believing it. In other words, 'full preterism' is self-refuting." Since then, no one came forth to answer just this one challenge, including the latest "pep-rallier" insisting everyone else is wrong. One telltale sign of a false belief system is ever increasing volume without substance. Sound familiar? If you "full preterists" were serious about what you believe, then you would give a solid answer. Don't sidestep the issue. Answer the challenge directly. I dare you.


Date:

17 Sep 2003

Time:

06:10:09

Comments

Hello guys, I consider myself to be a "Full Preterist" to the fullest extend. To the true Preterist there is no Final Judgment! What I think your referring to is the Great White Throne Judgment. This event occurred on 70 A.D. It was not THE FINAL JUDGMENT but a judgment that was to occur at the end of Redemptive History! And furthermore, this event occurred in the unseen realm! It was not cognizant to those physically alive. It's particpates were all those who had physically died at that point in history (say before the destruction of Jerusalem). Afterwards, a individual judgment occurs for everyone who dies physically since the Great White Throne Judgment. The Great White Throne Jugment was a collective judment for all those who lived and died during Redemptive History! Redemptive history began in the Garden when God clothed Adam and his wife with coats of skin (prefiguring the work of Christ) and closes with the spiritual Day of Atonement in 70 A.D. Redemptive History is in OUR past!


Date:

18 Sep 2003

Time:

06:44:20

Comments

"And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter" (Zechariah 14:8, NASB). Is one to understand this passage as referring to what will occur for a 24-hour period and then cease, or is this passage talking about an event that will begin that day an continue on afterward? How is it inconceivable that the judgment is the same way? (The only difference is the end of Hades.) As for the use of Christianity, it will continue, for the healing of the nations. Regarding debates, both Paul and Apollos debated the Jews (Acts 9:28, 29; 18:23-28), who were in error. My problem with the futurist paradigm has always been this: if all the believers are in heaven at the "end of history," who lives on the new earth and in the New Jerusalem? Or were the Jehovah's Witnesses right about their 144,000 in heaven doctrine all along? KP


Date:

18 Sep 2003

Time:

10:35:21

Comments

I am a member of the church of Christ and though I find the Full Preterist view to be in the minority, it is the belief that I maintain. The Judgement in 70 AD was the final judjment on that nation and the end of the Old covenant. It was not the last judgment. Each individual will stand before God to recieve his reward whether it be good or evil. "For it is appointed onc e for a man to die and the the judgment." This is not the same judgment as that which occurred in 70 AD but with equal weight can carry the meaning of the final judgment. Yes, I know that the Christ put an end to the law at the cross but it was not completed until 70 AD else the writer of Hebrews would have been speaking falsely when speaking of its soon demise.


Date:

18 Sep 2003

Time:

12:43:05

Comments

Judgment began at the Parousia of Jesus Christ about AD 70. It continues today. The books opened at the Great White Throne Judgment never close. Scripture puts it this way: “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.” (Hebrews 9:27) Your terms, “Last Judgment,” or “Final Judgment” are figments of your imagination. You know, like your love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control are also non-existent figments of your imagination.


Date:

18 Sep 2003

Time:

12:50:19

Comments

Judgment began at the Parousia of Jesus Christ about AD 70. It continues today. The books opened at the Great White Throne Judgment never close. Scripture puts it this way: “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.” (Hebrews 9:27) Your terms, “Last Judgment,” or “Final Judgment” are figments of your imagination. You know, like your love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control are also non-existent figments of your imagination.


Date:

21 Sep 2003

Time:

23:42:29

Comments

Several "full preterists" have come forth recently to challenge my assertion that "full preterism" is self-refuting. The basis for the responses seems largely to assert such things as there is no "final judgment" or that the "Great White Throne Judgment" (e.g., see Rev. 20:11-15, Matt. 25: 31-46) occurred in 70 A.D. The term "final judgment" is a convenient name to ascribe to the judgment beyond which there is no judgment. In that sense, the "Great White Throne Judgment" and the "final judgment" are equivalent. Those who contend that the "Great White Throne Judgment" occurred in 70 A.D. have the burden of proof. From a plain reading of the above passages and an elementary consideration of the history of the seventh and eighth decades A.D., no such event occurred during those decades, nor before then nor up to today, for that matter. Had such a judgment occurred, we should expect to see voluminous works on the subject, many surviving to the present. The fact that Clement, and doubtless many other believers, lived across the 70 A.D. divide without any of them leaving any records of such a judgment supports the contention that there was no such judgment then. The activities of Nero, Vespatian, Titus, and others do not in the slightest compare to God's direct judgment. Whoever claims that such a judgment did occur in 70 A.D. must prove such a claim, based on exegesis, not eisegesis, of all passages concerning this issue, together with historical records during, or authoritatively dealing with, those times. I now challenge "full preterists" to produce the proof, not merely spout the typical "full preterist" doctrinal statements about this issue, which is all that has occurred in the comments delivered so far.


Date:

01 Oct 2003

Time:

16:57:07

Comments

Hi, it's me again. You know, "the pep-rallier". It is amusing that you warn your readers not to debate full preterists, or they will open themselves up to demons. Yet, you have posted no less than 4 times here. Better get to your local exorcist in a hurry. Reality is: full preterism teaches that Jesus has finished his work. What is self-refuting about that? If that were so, then even your view would be self-refuting, AFTER Jesus comes again. Jesus has completed his accomplished task, to redeem mankind and reconcile them to the Father. The JOY of knowing the One true God, and His Son, Jesus Christ, whom he sent is the whole point of the scriptures. That is eternal life. It is now available to all, thanks to the completed work of Jesus Christ. He has judged man according to their works, i.e., the flesh. Now, He judges us according to the spirit. Ed Burley, burleybunch@comcast.net. Feel free to e-mail me if you want to talk. I notice that you didn't have the guts the first time. For goodness sake, I gave you my e-mail. What are you afraid of?


Date:

05 Oct 2003

Time:

08:36:06

Comments

Once again, let's take the latest pertinent comments one at a time. "It is amusing that you warn your readers not to debate full preterists, or they will open themselves up to demons." I have never said any such thing. This author must be confusing my comments with those of another. I, for one, say, "Let the debate begin!" "Reality is: full preterism teaches that Jesus has finished his work." Here, what counts more is not this sentence itself, and the sentences under it, important as they are, but the meaning of the specific phrase "Jesus has finished his work" phrase. Anyone holding to an orthodox position would agree with the sentences, even before 70 A.D., because the standard meaning is that the finishing occurred at the cross, a meaning which is anything but self-refuting. However, to say such a sentence also means all prophecy was fulfilled by 70 A.D. is unwarranted for many reasons, a small fraction of which I have stated many times. "I notice that you didn't have the guts the first time. For goodness sake, I gave you my e-mail. What are you afraid of?" I have never been, and certainly am not now, afraid of you or your views. Stating an e-mail address does not necessarily invite anyone to send e-mail to that address, anymore than stating a street address necessarily invites anyone to send snail mail to that address. But if you want a good "fight" in the civil sense, BRING IT ON! GO AHEAD! If YOU want to write, please feel free to respond in this forum, to my e-mail address ddb4chess@yahoo.com, or both! Meanwhile, to you and "full preterists" like you, my recent call for proof remains unfulfilled. Would you not ask someone making a claim where its proof is? Same here!


Date:

06 Oct 2003

Time:

18:08:15

Comments

Bands Report, So far, the only thing that I hear from you is unsubstantiated accusations and shrill nonsense, devoid of biblical exegesis. Your challenge for proof of Preterist eschatology is ridiculous in light of the fact that there is an abundance of Preterist writing available. If what you're looking for is a debate, then name a specific topic and make your opening statement. JRP


Date:

06 Oct 2003

Time:

20:39:25

Comments

"Prove it, prove it, prove it." A defiant voice cries in the face of logic and evidence all in a fleeting attempt to hold onto some tradition passed onto him by the local pastor in his hometown congregation. I can through history and through the Bible provide proof that the preterist view has evidence on its side to support it; can any futurist? There is a serious hole in the logic bucket of anyone who wants to compare the evidence between a futurist who says, "I have no evidence which I can understand or apply, therefore it has not happened" to someone who says, "I have historical evidence to support all the claims of prophecy, therefore I believe it has happened." Which is believable? It reminds me of those who say the holocaust never happened, or of the athiest who says there is no God in spite of the evidence. Who stands to gain from a denial of preterism? If preterism is true, then indeed: -the kingdom of God and chosenness of people passed from the Hebrew nation under the old covenant of law and works to the children of the promise of the Father through faith. -Also, that Jesus was a true prophet, proving all claims He made, including Sonship. -That the Bible has indeed been passed down unadulterated. Even misunderstood, the truth lies within its texts after almost 2,000 years. -That we are no longer under the law of sin and death. -That death has been overcome, and those who are in Christ have nothing to fear. -That Jesus reigns, having all things put under His feet, and -that He was able to present the church to His Father as His Bride, and that we are made one with Him. If preterism is false: -We are still under the law, as it is still in force. -Death still reigns. -The gospel is not to be accepted as testimony, and that, according to scripture itself, Jesus is a false prophet and liar. -Anyone with a hope of pleasing God should be or become a Jew. -Christians are not one with Christ, the Church not having attended the wedding feast to become the Bride of Christ. ----------------- So the question "are you a futurist or a preterist" could more aptly be stated, "Do you think Jesus was a liar or not?" So who stands to gain from denying the preterist perspective? Only Satan. By taking away His prophecies' fulfillment through ignorance, you condemn Him to having been a liar, a false prophet and a fool for thinking He was God's Son and that the Father had told Him the truth. Look at how many contrivances have to be made regarding futurist eschatology in order for it to coincide with scripture? Jesus stopped reading a passage of scripture at a certain point to say some unspoken thing, that two sentences spoken together are separated by almost 2,000 years and counting, and the list goes on and on. Meanwhile, all preterism does is say, Read the bible and compare it to history to see the congruence. Finally: -do you realize that if the revelation and the gospels is not talking about the destruction of the temple in 70AD - that this monumental event in history is not prophecied anywhere by the church? -The temple has now been gone for more than twice as long as it ever existed in any finished form? -The 'second temple' that existed was not according to scriptural specifications, and was only restored to its original dimensions in what is the 'third temple' period during Jesus' lifetime? -This restoration of the temple during the time of the Messiah is the only 'rebuilding' of the temple ever prophecied? -Jesus and all the apostles called the 'end times' at hand, soon, and quickly, and their days as 'these last days;' preterism embraces the words of Jesus and the apostles. However, futurism takes these words and phrases and says that they apply to a gulf in time greater than that between Abraham and Jesus? I have tons of evidence to support the preterist position, while there is much less than evidence to support futurism -- which denies all evidence both supporting other views and the evidence which refutes itself.


Date:

07 Oct 2003

Time:

02:48:47

Comments

OK Bands Report, I'll get us started. Here's my question for you. Which parts of the book of Revelation do not apply to these two verses, and why? Rev 1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand." Rev 22:10 "And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand." The time is at hand. What a curious statement if in fact 2000 + years were meant. JRP


Date:

07 Oct 2003

Time:

07:32:12

Comments

"Which parts of the book of Revelation do not apply to these two verses [Rev. 1:3, 22:10], and why?" It's your "full-preterist" theory, so the burden of proof belongs to you. Using only objective criteria, prove what "the time is at hand" means.


Date:

07 Oct 2003

Time:

08:23:20

Comments

Mr. Bands Report, So that's your rebuttal? Why don't you try being intellectually honest. "The time is at hand" means just what it says. The book of Revelation begins and ends with this phrase and is "proof" of the Preterist view point. If you don't think that "the time is at hand" means exactly what it says, then the burden of proof is on you. "Ho gar kairos eggus" JRP


Date:

07 Oct 2003

Time:

08:29:56

Comments

"I have tons of evidence to support the preterist position ..." I would prefer you meet the proof challenges issued a number of times by now. In any event, please produce these tons of evidence, not a "full-preterist" diatribe, in an orderly fashion, showing without any subjectivity that only "full-preterism" is scholastically true. I don't think you can produce any such proof or actual evidence. You prove me wrong.


Date:

07 Oct 2003

Time:

08:32:39

Comments

"The time is at hand" can mean any number of things. You prove what it means. Then we can dialogue about your position.


Date:

07 Oct 2003

Time:

08:56:44

Comments

Mr Bands Report, You write: "The time is at hand" can mean any number of things." Really? How about an example. JRP


Date:

07 Oct 2003

Time:

09:21:37

Comments

"How about an example." I see. So that's how you go about proving something. I'm poking at your position, not putting forth a position. You prove what the phrase "The time is at hand" means.


Date:

07 Oct 2003

Time:

17:12:59

Comments

Mr. Bands Report, The meaning of the phrase "the time is at hand" is self evident, but you insist on playing games. It's obvious that you're not interested in proof at all. I've met your challenge to provide proof of the Preterist position. I began by giving you a foundational proof - Preterism 101 if you will, and yet you continue with this juvenile tactic of demanding proof of proof. No doubt you'll continue with your baseless ranting and raving, but your disingenuous attitude has been exposed here. If you ever decide to open your eyes, take your fingers out of your ears, and dialogue honestly, let me know. I can be found here, on the Planet Preterist forums, or at jrp70ad@yahoo.com JRP


Date:

08 Oct 2003

Time:

10:54:54

Comments

Oct 5, the author states, "Once again, let's take the latest pertinent comments one at a time. "It is amusing that you warn your readers not to debate full preterists, or they will open themselves up to demons." I have never said any such thing." Really? Let's take a look at a QUOTE from the above article: "DO . NOT .. try to debate them. You are literally inviting demons into your life, if you do." Now, I guess that we have found the liar for what he is. In addition, in the above article, he makes the claim that "You must then accept their false doctrine that NONE of God's Word was ever meant to be taken literally. That every verse in the Bible was meant to be accepted - BY YOU - as only "figuratively" speaking." Really, well my friend JRP has asked this liar what the scripture means in Revelation when it says, "The time is at hand". The preterist believes that this is to be taken literally. But the liar here has claimed that only HE takes the scriptures literally. His response to JRP's question: "the burden of proof belongs to you. Using only objective criteria, prove what "the time is at hand" means." What? The lying author doesn't take the bible literally? Eeegads, and holy deception Batman. Let's see what else the lying author has to say about JRP's question: ""The time is at hand" can mean any number of things. You prove what it means. Then we can dialogue about your position." To which JRP then asks for examples. Yet, none are forthcoming. Why? Because our author is a liar.


Date:

09 Oct 2003

Time:

00:57:49

Comments

With respect to "Oct 5, the author states, 'Once again, let's take the latest pertinent comments one at a time. "It is amusing that you warn your readers not to debate full preterists, or they will open themselves up to demons." I have never said any such thing.'" and so forth, JRP has tacitly agreed that I am not the author of the original discourse, which appears above the "Add Your Comments" box, sparked all the discussion to this point. So "I have never said any such thing" is correct.


Date:

09 Oct 2003

Time:

11:24:26

Comments

You are not the author? Well, it is easy to see how I could have been confused since neither you nor the author had the guts to put your names on anything. In fact, most of the dispies here haven't put their names on their comments either. Well, the fact that you are not the author, just someone who agrees with him is enough for me to keep the same assessment of you.


Date:

09 Oct 2003

Time:

14:39:16

Comments

I see. No one has asked for my name yet. So, to remove that excuse, my name is David Dana-Bashian. What's your name?


Date:

10 Oct 2003

Time:

21:39:30

Comments

"... is at hand." In scripture: Deuteronomy 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. - another keyword - haste - Zephaniah 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. - Has prepared the sacrifice and invited guests. See also Exodus 29:34 to see what had to be done with the sacrifice: Exodus 29:34 And if ought of the flesh of the consecrations, or of the bread, remain unto the morning, then thou shalt burn the remainder with fire: it shall not be eaten, because it is holy. - It could not last beyond the morning. Again, haste. Matthew 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. - at hand. Whether to stay there (same day) or to die on the cross (next day) again ... immediately is again shown. Matthew 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me. 47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people. - "The hour is at hand, the hour is at hand, he is at hand" The hour was then, and the 'he' was right there. Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. - the time is 'filled up to the top' 'there is no more want or need for any more time' John 19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. 42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews’ preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand. - it was 'right there' in the same garden. Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. - The night is far spent (almost gone) and the day is 'at hand.' The time between night and day is not very long by any standard. Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. 2 Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith - departure 'at hand,' and afterward he speaks of his life in past tense. 1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. same hour, right then, right there, before morning, filled to the top, haste, in the same garden.... I think I can safely say that 'at hand' means real soon, immediate, close proximity. Is there any evidence to the contrary?


Date:

10 Oct 2003

Time:

21:45:54

Comments

"... is at hand." In scripture: Deuteronomy 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.<br> - another keyword - haste - <br> <br> Zephaniah 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. <br> <br> - Has prepared the sacrifice and invited guests. See also Exodus 29:34 to see what had to be done with the sacrifice: <br> <br> Exodus 29:34 And if ought of the flesh of the consecrations, or of the bread, remain unto the morning, then thou shalt burn the remainder with fire: it shall not be eaten, because it is holy. <br> <br> - It could not last beyond the morning. Again, haste. <br> <br> Matthew 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. <br> <br> - at hand. Whether to stay there (same day) or to die on the cross (next day) again ... immediately is again shown. <br> <br> Matthew 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me. 47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people. <br> <br> - "The hour is at hand, the hour is at hand, he is at hand" The hour was then, and the 'he' was right there. <br> <br> Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. - <br> <br> the time is 'filled up to the top' 'there is no more want or need for any more time' <br> <br> John 19:41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. 42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews’ preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand. <br> <br> - it was 'right there' in the same garden. <br> <br> Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. - The night is far spent (almost gone) and the day is 'at hand.' <br> <br> The time between night and day is not very long by any standard. <br> <br> Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. <br> <br> 2 Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith <br> <br> - departure 'at hand,' and afterward he speaks of his life in past tense. <br> <br> 1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. <br> <br> Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. <br> <br> Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. <br> <br> <br>same hour, right then, right there, before morning, filled to the top, haste, in the same garden.... I think I can safely say that 'at hand' means real soon, immediate, close proximity. Is there any evidence to the contrary?


Date:

12 Oct 2003

Time:

19:31:18

Comments

Note that each of the references to items such as "the time is at hand" refers to a DIFFERENT time period. The evidence of fulfillment of a passage must be in agreement with the passage. Where is the evidence of the fulfillment of the Great White Throne Judgment, found in Rev. 20:11-15? One need not believe in "full preterism" if there is no fulfillment of this judgment. But if the Great White Throne Judgment already found fulfillment, then one need not believe in "full preterism" because there would be no judgment for not believing it. Either way, "full preterism" is not something to believe and so is self-refuting. Who will dispute this assertion? So far, every response has sidestepped this issue.


Date:

12 Oct 2003

Time:

19:31:54

Comments

Note that each of the references to items such as "the time is at hand" refers to a DIFFERENT time period. The evidence of fulfillment of a passage must be in agreement with the passage. Where is the evidence of the fulfillment of the Great White Throne Judgment, found in Rev. 20:11-15? One need not believe in "full preterism" if there is no fulfillment of this judgment. But if the Great White Throne Judgment already found fulfillment, then one need not believe in "full preterism" because there would be no judgment for not believing it. Either way, "full preterism" is not something to believe and so is self-refuting. Who will dispute this assertion? So far, every response has sidestepped this issue.


Date:

16 Oct 2003

Time:

12:30:52

Comments

Ed Burley. Glad to meet you. Now "self-refuting". The "self-refuting" is not found in the dictionary I possess. Refute however is. It means "to prove wrong by argument or evidence," or "show to be false or erroneous," or "to deny the truth or accuracy of." Adding the prefix "self" simply means "by means of itself". So self-refuting means that preterism "denies the accuracy or truth of itself." That is patently ridiculous. Do you mean to say that it is "self-contradictory"? Or do you mean to say that preterists, by believing in preterism, denies preterism? Again, ridiculous! The truth of the matter is, most Christians believe in the truths of preterism, when they argue the fact that Jesus has provided salvation for us. Well according to Paul, that was not yet an accomplished fact. It required Jesus' second coming in order to consummate it. Yet, most Christians I know believe that Jesus has "done it all". Now, if you want to talk about self-contradicting, I find that making the statement that "Jesus did it all", while at the same time believing that He must come again in our future is contradictory. The argument that a teaching that says that Jesus has completed salvation for those for whom he died is self-refuting doesn't hold up to scrutiny. If you want to believe that, well I can see how you can since you have shown yourself to be quite naive and gullible with the other things that you believe. I won't waste any more of your time. As Paul said, you "add nothing to my ministry".


Date:

16 Oct 2003

Time:

15:51:59

Comments

Whether the word "self-refuting" is in your dictionaries does not prove that the word "self-refuting" is not a valid word. A Google search under the word "self-refuting" reveals 4660 sites, including, for example, the site http://www.carm.org/relativism/relativism_refute.htm of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry. I am not saying that any particular person or people would be self-refuting. However, I am saying that a person holding to "full preterism" is holding to a self-refuting position. The Great White Throne Judgment is sufficient by itself to show that "full preterism" is self-refuting. "So self-refuting means that preterism 'denies the accuracy or truth of itself.'" YES! "Full preterism" DOES deny the accuracy or truth of itself! I need not show that preterism denies EVERY accuracy or truth (so-called) of itself. It suffices to show that there exists ONE such denial. And the Great White Throne Judgment, all by itself, is such a sufficiency, for the reasons I have repeatedly given. "Or do you mean to say that preterists, by believing in preterism, denies preterism?" I stated very exactly that one need not believe "full preterism" if the Great White Throne Judgment HAS NOT been fulfilled (yet) because "full preterism" claims the Great White Throne Judgment has already occurred, and that one need not believe "full preterism" if the Great White Throne Judgment HAS been fulfilled because there would be no judgment for NOT believing "full preterism" to be true. How many dozens of times more must I make these same claims before you even comprehend them, let alone come to grips with them? "Well according to Paul, that was not yet an accomplished fact. It required Jesus' second coming in order to consummate it." What Scripture(s) are you citing for these statements? When Jesus said, "It is finished," then "It is finished." Jesus made this statement on the cross in the third or fourth decade A.D., not the seventh or eighth decade A.D. "If you want to believe that, well I can see how you can since you have shown yourself to be quite naive and gullible with the other things that you believe. I won't waste any more of your time. As Paul said, you 'add nothing to my ministry.'" I don't resort to ad hominem statements, whether these statements or other statements. Why do you? I would contend that a search for the truth not have any such ad hominem statements, which contribute nothing but adverse reactions. So stick to the claims, please.


Date:

20 Oct 2003

Time:

17:49:45

Comments

Being a born again , and a new one at that, I have one thing to add, and one thing only...I will add nothing more at any other time. (2Tim 2:16-18) "But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenseus and Philetus; who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some." NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN


Date:

25 Oct 2003

Time:

21:45:45

Comments

You are a sick psycho


Date:

02 Nov 2003

Time:

08:16:31

Comments

In the comments below I proved "full preterism" is self-refuting. This proof against "full preterism" is sufficient by itself. Also, with many other examples in these comments have I shown furthermore that "full preterism" contradicts history. Now I add TWO more disproofs. On the site http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/DAILYF/2003/02/daily-02-23-2003.shtml among many others: "One of John's spiritual sons, Polycarp, was born about 69 A.D. He lived in Smyrna and learned much by listening to John." A central tenet of "full preterism" is that John wrote the Revelation before 70 A.D., for if he wrote the Revelation afterward, the case for "full preterism" collapses. Many times "full preterists" claim John couldn't have even been alive after 70 A.D. If John were already dead before 70 A.D., how could Polycarp listen to John, let alone be discipled by him? Polycarp's own testimony at his 23 February 155 martyrdom, found on the same site: "Eighty and six years have I served Christ, nor has He ever done me any harm. How, then, could I blaspheme my King who saved me? You threaten the fire that burns for an hour and then is quenched; but you know not of the fire of the judgment to come, and the fire of eternal punishment. Bring what you will." Subtracting 86 from 155 leaves 69. So Polycarp himself believed that he, Polycarp, was born in 69 A.D. Since Polycarp did listen to John, then John was alive after 70 A.D., in fact, WELL AFTER 70 A.D. for John to disciple him. So the proof that "full preterists" seek that John died before 70 A.D. cannot exist in truth! Further, Polycarp testified to "the fire of the judgment to come, and the fire of eternal punishment." So Polycarp believed of judgment TO COME, definitely NOT that the judgment had already come, to which "full preterists" hold. Concluding, there are now TWO further proofs against "full preterism" being true. First, John was alive AFTER 70 A.D., contradicting "full preterist" claims that he was dead BEFORE 70 A.D. Second, final judgment is to come AFTER 155 A.D., contradicting "full preterist" claims that all judgments occurred BEFORE 70 A.D.


Date:

02 Nov 2003

Time:

18:36:12

Comments

Really? Who claims that John was dead after 70AD? Give your proof. You're grasping at straws.


Date:

04 Nov 2003

Time:

08:57:54

Comments

"Who claims that John was dead after 70 AD?" Everyone! John is dead now, and now is after 70 A.D.! The question is whether John DIED after 70 A.D., not whether John was DEAD after 70 A.D. But nearly everyone holds that John DIED after 70 A.D. The only reference I found that even considered a pre-70 A.D. death for John was pp. 92-93 of "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.D., which Ken Davies recommended for reading. Even there, that reference says, "In that the excerpts, however, are not indisputably genuine, they cannot be reckoned conclusive." My point is that if John died before 70 A.D., he could not have discipled Polycarp, which he did. Therefore, one must admit the possibility, if not the probability or certainty, that John wrote the Revelation after 70 A.D. I don't have to prove when John wrote the Revelation, but a "full preterist" MUST prove the writing of the Revelation to be before 70 A.D., or else the case for "full preterism" collapses. Still not answered is Polycarp's testimony (some references state 22 February 155 instead of 23 February 155) concerning the final judgment. Still not answered is the self-refuting nature that "full preterism" exihibits. Incidentally, in my last note, "comments below" referred to comments already recorded, below the comment box, and perhaps should read "earlier comments" to avoid any confusion.


Date:

23 Nov 2003

Time:

12:03:14

Comments

Because this guy is our brother we must love him and try not to laugh too hard. We've all been there in our walk with the Lord and I'm sure God will help this guy out if we pray for him. I have little patience for these self-proclaimed heresy hunters and "defenders of the (futurist) faith" they come off as very pompous etc. and they are saddly as full of ignorance as they are full of themselves. God will help us all, and we'll laugh about this in Heaven, but for now it's quite counterproductive. Sad, very sad. Keep up the good work my Pret brothers and I can't wait to see you in Heaven where the Lord will show us ALL just how ignorant we ALL were. - "hyper-heretic-satanic-pagan-pawn of the Antichrist" Pret.brother, erick :^) (with much love) "Brace yourself like a man, and I will question you, and you will answer Me" - God


Date:

29 Nov 2003

Time:

08:09:03

Comments

What's to laugh about? I Cor. 14:33 guarantees that God is not a God of confusion. Note how the author never answers even one of the challenges with logic. So much for "full preterism" devotees' intellectual honesty. Divert attention from the logical fallacies of "full preterism" and hope they disappear over time. Who really needs the prayer? The "full preterist"! "Brace yourself like a man, and I will question you, and you will answer Me." Indeed! Straining the gnat of "the time is at hand" to swallow the camel of irresolvable anachronisms! Face the music.


Date:

29 Nov 2003

Time:

19:38:26

Comments

Questions: 1.Can you see Jesus? 2. Can you see His kingdom? These questions bear on ones ability to accept the thought that Jesus did return and is ruling in the now. If we cannot accept what Jesus told Nicodemous we have no chance of seeing Him and/or His kingdom in the now. Being incapable of seeing Him can come about through an active choice to not believe what He said, and because we have failed to obey His commandments. He and His father take up their abode with the believing faithful. The world can no longer see Him, but righteous believers can. I wonder how many can associate what I said here with scriptures. Vern Manson www.peacekey.com


Date:

30 Nov 2003

Time:

09:47:37

Comments

"Questions: 1. Can you see Jesus? 2. Can you see His kingdom? These questions bear on ones ability to accept the thought that Jesus did return and is ruling in the now." Physical or spiritual return? Jesus had ruled in believers' hearts by the Holy Spirit since the fourth decade A.D. Show me someone claiming Jesus already returned physically, and I'll show you someone in a straitjacket.


Date:

12 May 2004

Time:

20:27:55

Comments

I enjoyed your article. There are literally thousands of such types of people preaching today who have no idea about the Bible and they don't know how to rightly divide the word of truth, as it is laid out in II Timothy 2:15. If they did understand they wouldn't teach the things they do. One thing I wish to correct you on; they can't make me lose my salvation; I have been saved and sealed bu the Holy Spirit. I would love to challenge one of these men to a debate, but it would be a waste of time. I enjoyed your site. Check mine out- www.lostbibletruths.com In Christ, Pastor Martin Ran


Date:

13 Jun 2004

Time:

09:12:30

Comments

I only popped in to see if you'd followed up your claim regarding the great fireball - that would consume America before Clinton left office - its just my flame retardant suit is getting a bit itchy.


Date:

13 Nov 2004

Time:

22:38:42

Comments

Satan is looking over my SHOULDER! Tempting me...always tempting me! I must stay safely in the FOLDS of CHURCH TRADITION because the truth of Christ CAN'T defend itself against SATAN! May our tradition never be challenged! Thank you, Bands Report! You have truly blessed us in your intellectually stimulating exegesis on this disgustingly heretical betrayal of Jesus and his plan to WHISK US AWAY FROM ALL THE BAD PEOPLE! I never realized how much POWER SATAN has OVER US! Bless you sir! and bless our flawless interpretation of scripture! I'd like to talk further, please email me at heathen_bonfire@head->butt.com (I figured a satirical work deserved a satirical response.)


Date:

16 Jan 2005

Time:

09:03:24

Comments

Hello- I pointed out to this guy that one of his visions conflicted with the words of Jesus'and this FALSE PROPHET!! said he was praying for God to kill my firstborn and put a curse on me that all water entering my mouth would turn to blood and drive me insane. He is an evil FALSE PEOPHET !!!


Date:

07 Mar 2005

Time:

09:47:36

Comments

I have lived and worked a minimum of four years in Africa, Asia, Europe and North America. All the churches are literally filled with anger-inducing, invisible smoke from the bottomless pit, the lid of which the Angel has removed. Many priests are more like wolves than shepherds. I bear witness to all these in all the above-mentioned continents. The apostasy is global!! Is this truly the beginning of the much-awaited Great Tribulation?


Date: 31 Mar 2005
Time: 15:53:50

Comments :

thank you for standing up for the truth  these people remind of theSDA  will say anything to get you hooked and then the brainwashing starts  keep up the good work


Date: 18 Feb 2006
Time: 13:04:58

Comments :

Great article. I could do without the bold letters and colored fonts, but hey, anything that pisses off a bunch hyper-critical, Presbyterian devotees of R.C. Sproul can't be all bad.


Date: 04 Aug 2007
Time: 15:53:22

Comments :

You are definately not a Bible scholar. The apostles did taste death--they were martyred in the first century. So is Jesus a liar--or did some of them see his (Judgment) coming?


Date: 28 Oct 2007
Time: 19:33:50

Comments :

I love the lord our with all my soul.My life was almost destroyed by this form of brainwash pumped out by the SDA cult/or may I say Satan's Day Asswipes.I don't se how they think to get away with their lies,and keep a strait face.They've got my family hook,line,and sinker.I wish threr was something I could do but,they just don't believe the bible,insted they believe in doctrines of demons.I love them so!God help them,and God bless you.yours truly Eliel Pereira.


Date: 26 Nov 2009
Time: 12:02:23

Your Comments:

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT MUST BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY BY EVERY CHRISTIAN WHO IS WAITING FOR THE RETURN OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. PLEASE SEND THIS TO ME. MY ADDRESS IS derkametatyahoo.co.uk.THANK YOU.

 


Date: 27 Nov 2009
Time: 14:04:32

Your Comments:

God is not a man that he should lie.If we stick to the" word of God alone" we will find truth.The problem in Cults and Churches is that the tradditions of "Men" make void the "Word of God"Therefore we often plant seeds not knowing we are casting our pearls to swine.
E Pereira

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